X4 or new X3 DLC

[GrieferBastard]

The question that leaves is, even if Egosoft makes X4, why in the *world* should the rest of us buy it? What sort of fool would that make us after how this turned out? Given that Bernd thinks that X:R was a spectacular success and just needs a bit of patching up what sort of mind-altering medications would we need to be taking, regularly, to want to fall for this again?

why in the world shouldn't we buy it? if they do put out an honest-to-god X4, what reason not to play it? to punish them? would the satisfaction you derive from punishing them outweight the satisfaction you would get from playing an excellent game?

It's like I mentioned earlier, it's not a matter of punishment but rather a scenario of "fool me once, shame on you...Fool me twice, shame on me". Some people who feel burnt by XR won't come back for a second helping. Also as I mentioned earlier there are other potentially good space sims on the horizon, so those same people might be getting all the satisfaction they need.

That's really it. I'd like to buy an X4. I'd even pay $60 for it, if it was actually X4. I wouldn't mind bugs nearly so much. Right now however I have absolutely no reason what so ever to trust that's what it would be - for all I know it would be Hello Kitty in SPAAAACCCEEE!!!!! - originally designed for the Wii, with no viable joystick control. But that cute little Kitty runs a pet rescue for people who say they are from Argon space. That makes it EXACTLY LIKE X3.... right?

Maybe it just never came up before through all the previous X iterations but the handling of X:R has felt really dishonest. The expectations built around what the game would be were poorly placed I guess you could say. That it's been followed with 'what a success the game is' by the developers..... it's a pretty huge disconnect.

It's an indication that someone refuses to accept that they've made a mistake, acknowledge it and work on a resolution. Instead it becomes about trying to change everything else to make that mistake 'true'.

Which is all assumptions and at the end beside the point.

About 93% of the people who got X:R played it only briefly and then stopped. It is one of the 0.03% lowest reviewed games of all time, for as long as game reviews have been done. In the bottom 50 of almost 3200 games. By both players and reviewers.

The response to that is not 'we'll just patch it up', it's 'we'll rework pretty much the whole thing or start over'.

Which is not the direction Egosoft is going, ergo threads like this.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

The so called basics are complex issues and will require time and co-operation from the user base to help track down the root cause(s).

you just misunderstood me again, but i've got used to it... i meant under basics like engine. while they can't get past the engine bugs how could we even think of getting the features fixed? and i fear it isnt going to change in the foreseeable future...

No I did not, because the "basics" I am referring to are the engine issues - predominantly performance and stability.

Egosoft seem to be getting a handle on the problems, but as the issues tend to vary in form depending on the machine the software is run on and/or the precise machine state they need the end-users to confirm both that fixes resolve and do not cause the issues for them.

From what I have seen, the majority (if not all) of the feature requests are almost nothing in terms of software complexity when compared with the on-going issues with the engine.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Thats why I said X-Series. Rebirth isn't a continuation of X3.

What max is saying is technically correct...

In lore terms, X-Rebirth is a continuation of the X-Series but in engine terms it is not part of the X-Trilogy (as Egosoft call X-BTF to X3:AP inclusive).

[badbane]

Okay we get it X:R isn't a continuation of X3 it is a spin off. But why would this tiny publisher risk everything for a 7 year long side game akin to mortal combat sub zero stories or whatever it was called. Why not, at some point say we have has success with that we know people like and will buy. The didn't give their niche customer what they wanted. And Space sims, true sims, are do not appeal to the masses. They appeal to a niche of people. Trying to reinvent the wheel with this garbage was a mistake. If you have fun with this game great good for you. I'd rather boot up Parkan 2 and play that old russian game than this steaming pile of trash.
The bugs don't bother me. I played battlecruiser and that game was fun even with the crashing it was still fun. I can get over a buggy game. What I and most people can't get over is the poor design, concept, and game mechanics. IF they just gave us a more challenging AI that would be fine. Instead we have the same stupid AI. We have better looking visuals, and deeply flawed gameplay. notice I didn't say buggy. take the bugs out this game is too easy, there is no challenge other than forcing yourself to play it.
I mean I for one think that capital ships should be a challenge you pursue that takes time an real effort. No X:R is essentially a space sim wrapped up in thinly disguised mini games. Hitting hard points on a ship to disable or destroy it, STARFOX, Using space lane mini games to limit draw distance, Treasure hunt to find special deals, hire real crew members with little to no real ai. I mean If hired a captian to run a trade ship. He'd best be able to find a place to buy an sell.

It's like mario party sandbox game space sim. It is obvious that ego just doesn't have the talent to pull off x:r. So what no one wanted x:r. We paid 50 for x4 or the equivalent to x4. x:r will never be worth 50 bucks. Never.. it wasn't worth 50 at launch and it won't be worth 20 bucks or even 10 bucks before it's something on the level of X2.
Give up on X:R apologize give people who bought x:r a discount on x4 and make x4. otherwise say goodbye egosoft. There just aren't enough people willing to play this game to make Egosoft a viable publisher.

[boy]

The bugs don't bother me. I played battlecruiser and that game was fun even with the crashing it was still fun. I can get over a buggy game.

Great point. The Battlecruiser series (and UC) are definitely better games than XR. I actually still have UC installed and enjoy playing it sometimes.

IMO, Universal Combat is superior to XR in the areas of combat, trading, mining, getting out of your ship and walking around, and thinking. Plus, it has many additional features XR doesn't and less bugs. For anyone interested, UC is completely free these days too.

(Derek Smart in 2004) > (20 Egosoft employees in 2014)

[Graaf]

Thats why I said X-Series. Rebirth isn't a continuation of X3.

What max is saying is technically correct...

In lore terms, X-Rebirth is a continuation of the X-Series but in engine terms it is not part of the X-Trilogy (as Egosoft call X-BTF to X3:AP inclusive).

So you are saying I am right but you make it sound like Max is because you don't want to side with someone with an opposing view to Rebirth?

I love the X-Series of which Rebirth is no part of.
The Rebirth Engine has potential, Rebirth does not.

Now back to topic: X4 is preferred.

[dubnium]

the reviews were bad not only because the game was buggy, but because the fundamental game design is appealing to very few people. bugs never stopped x games from getting fair reviews. if egosoft persists in supporting a game that is almost universally disliked, then the x:rebirth will be the last game they will have made.

all of your arguments boil down to "i like it, and only people who agree with me are qualified to judge".

Thats not true at all. Your making an assumption that all the reviewers were able to see the underlying game mechanics in action to be able to enjoy them. If you don't see the potential in X rebirth, your likely not going to like any X series games.

Fundamentally the game hasn't changed that much. I'll repost something I posted for you

big design changes:
remove seta - great change, but kind of exposes the lack of shit to do while waiting on the economy
make the zones bigger with a way to travel between nodes - another great change, but the minigame can die in a fire
removed placing stations anywhere - kinda ****** but there is enough places to make to build
removed playing in multiple ships - complete shit since the fleet management and customization for the ship isn't there yet.
async manual trading - i actually love this change
ui changes to accommodate controller - I like it because i use a controller but I hope they can support both going forward.
hiring workers - i don't like this, its kind of an annoyance going from station to station to hire people, especially when you can only put four in the skunk but can hold like 50 marines.
more differentiation between capitol vs small ships - This is another good change
ability to dock and run around a ship - not all that interestesing
Trading system expanding to affect building stations/ships - another great change


missing features or broken features:
better skunk customization
fleet management
trading
ai
construction
buying smaller ships
more unique ships per faction
ability to purchase smaller ships

The missing/broken features account for 90% of the games play-ability.

Alot of us can see that once the game is fixed it will still be a great game to play

you're assuming the missing/broken features are not missing/broken by design and that egosoft has the ability to implement them in a timely fashion. also, i'm sure quite a few players would love to have seta back instead of sliding down opaque space tubes.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

...

you're assuming the missing/broken features are not missing/broken by design and that egosoft has the ability to implement them in a timely fashion. also, i'm sure quite a few players would love to have seta back instead of sliding down opaque space tubes.

SETA was considered generally a bad idea due to the problems it has caused in previous X games, there is no escaping those issues if it were to be brought back (which is probably unlikely). As for the "space tubes" they are not opaque they are semi-transparent (i.e. you can see some of what is on the other side of them). Personally, I do sometimes miss SETA but not from the travelling perspective in the main.

As for features being missing/broken by design - other than SETA, possibly building being restricted to allocated spots (building of complexes in X3 was a bit hit and miss, I personally hated the monotony of the process but agree that increased diversity in building spots would perhaps be nice), and perhaps the single flyable ship restriction (personally indifferent on this one, but the upgrades could be a little more diverse) - I can see very little that is potentially "broken/missing by design".

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Thats why I said X-Series. Rebirth isn't a continuation of X3.

What max is saying is technically correct...

In lore terms, X-Rebirth is a continuation of the X-Series but in engine terms it is not part of the X-Trilogy (as Egosoft call X-BTF to X3:AP inclusive).

So you are saying I am right but you make it sound like Max is because you don't want to side with someone with an opposing view to Rebirth?

Nope, I am pointing out that max does have a point and that as far as Egosoft is concerned (based on public info and that they own/control the lore) he is right and you are wrong.

As for X4 - it is a bit of a pipe dream if considering either a completely new engine or another X3 redux.

But going back to a question made earlier which I do not think has ever been appropriately answered... What is actually meant by X4? What is the EXACT feature list?

[Kaiser Kraft]

SETA was considered generally a bad idea due to the problems it has caused in previous X games, there is no escaping those issues if it were to be brought back (which is probably unlikely). As for the "space tubes" they are not opaque they are semi-transparent (i.e. you can see some of what is on the other side of them). Personally, I do sometimes miss SETA but not from the travelling perspective in the main.

What were the issues with SETA in the old games? I can honestly say I never noticed a problem with it. When crossing sectors I would have probably gone insane without it. In the early game the lack of SETA would probably have killed the series for most people. I only ever use SETA for traveling so if the issues were caused using it in other ways I wouldn't know. Having said that you seem to be making the point that it was a problem for travelling.

I would agree that station building was a pain in the arse in X3 but they did improve it as things evolved.

The single ship issue is a major bone of contention for most members of the community. It also strikes me as a major flaw in their console dream because the console folk would probably love to be rewarded with unlocked ships to poodle about in. That is plainly obvious going by most games on consoles offering unlocking and pimping up 5hit. That turns them on big time they would even pay for DLC content that gives them a gun skin or changes the colour of a car to unlock.

Your list of game breakers is far from exhaustive and really addresses some of the minor issues many people have with the game play in Rebirth. Your also missing the cumulative effect that these design flaws inflict.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Your list of game breakers is far from exhaustive and really addresses some of the minor issues many people have with the game play in Rebirth. Your also missing the cumulative effect that these design flaws inflict.

The list was not intended to be exhaustive in terms of ALL the issues that I can personally see with X-Rebirth but rather exhaustive in terms of issues that I believe are "missing/broken by design" and thus probably not going to change in the near future (but that does not mean they can not be mitigated). As for missing the cumulative effect, these particular limitations have very little in common.

However, to answer your question about SETA - One of the issues is that the AI and pathing typically went berserk in all but the most simple of cases.

As for SETA being a problem for travelling, no - but due to the above it could be easily abused - especially in X3:TC/X3:AP. If all people want SETA for is for travelling point to point faster then there are other options in X-Rebirth (e.g. hitching a ride on a capital ship) which do not require the whole universe to be run at a faster rate.

The Highways are not perfect perhaps but at least they do not break the simulation of the universe.

[Kaiser Kraft]

Your list of game breakers is far from exhaustive and really addresses some of the minor issues many people have with the game play in Rebirth. Your also missing the cumulative effect that these design flaws inflict.

The list was not intended to be exhaustive in terms of ALL the issues that I can personally see with X-Rebirth but rather exhaustive in terms of issues that I believe are "missing/broken by design" and thus probably not going to change in the near future (but that does not mean they can not be mitigated).

Well I think there maybe a surprise in-store when people start to mitigate the issues hard coded into the core code. The reason I say that is because on the surface it looks like some of the design blunders are deep rooted base elements. I guess time will tell to what degree that holds true. It's academic at this point in time, but to presume otherwise seems like wishful thinking.

Would you please shed some light on the big issues SETA had in the previous games please? I genuinely would like to know what I missed over the past ten years or so.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Would you please shed some light on the big issues SETA had in the previous games please? I genuinely would like to know what I missed over the past ten years or so.

See post above - if breaking the AI and pathing is not a big enough issue I don't know what is.

[de la Serna]

if breaking the AI and pathing is not a big enough issue I don't know what is.

Meaning what, exactly? I always used SETA for traveling in TC, and I can assure you that my game didn't crash, NPC ships didn't start 'behaving strangely', nor did the game become unplayable after returning to 'normal time'... So what were the big game breaking issues, again?

[INSTG8R]

Would you please shed some light on the big issues SETA had in the previous games please? I genuinely would like to know what I missed over the past ten years or so.

See post above - if breaking the AI and pathing is not a big enough issue I don't know what is.

Right and Rebirth with no SETA has great AI pathing...

[nap_rz]

fundamental issue with SETA was the potential of codes skipping inside the engine, from physics, AI, pathfinding, anything that related to codes may be affected.

usually clearly visible when people are using many additional scripts or mods that add scripts then ran SETA with high multiplier, you will see things like :

1. engine trails getting ahead of your ship in first person view mode
2. fighting and turret scripts not working properly
3. ships freeze bug usually when there's a big fight, you will see ships literally frozen on space doing nothing forever until cleaned up with cheat script.
4. factories production time skipping/sync problem

[tuareg]

fundamental issue with SETA was the potential of codes skipping inside the engine, from physics, AI, pathfinding, anything that related to codes may be affected.

usually clearly visible when people are using many additional scripts or mods that add scripts then ran SETA with high multiplier, you will see things like :

1. engine trails getting ahead of your ship
2. fighting and turret scripts not working properly
3. ships freeze bug usually when there's a big fight, you will see ships literally frozen on space doing nothing forever until cleaned up with cheat script.

none of these happened to me in 2000 hours and my seta run always on x10, ohh, sure, i didnt use seta in fight especially not in big combats, whats the reason of doing so? The worse problem it could cause for me if there was a small ship flying close to a station it could crash the complex model under seta but really that was the max (but it was able to do it without seta as well)
anyway, I dont want seta, there are a lot of other solutions for traveling, just ego would need some creativity what they obviously doesnt have

[nap_rz]

fundamental issue with SETA was the potential of codes skipping inside the engine, from physics, AI, pathfinding, anything that related to codes may be affected.

usually clearly visible when people are using many additional scripts or mods that add scripts then ran SETA with high multiplier, you will see things like :

1. engine trails getting ahead of your ship
2. fighting and turret scripts not working properly
3. ships freeze bug usually when there's a big fight, you will see ships literally frozen on space doing nothing forever until cleaned up with cheat script.

none of these happened to me in 2000 hours and my seta run always on x10, ohh, sure, i didnt use seta in fight especially not in big combats, whats the reason of doing so? The worse problem it could cause for me if there was a small ship flying close to a station it could crash the complex model under seta but really that was the max (but it was able to do it without seta as well)
anyway, I dont want seta, there are a lot of other solutions for traveling, just ego would need some creativity what they obviously doesnt have

try running XRM + insane pirate guild + yaki armada + phanon corp + mbrr + improved races + advanced turrets scripts for all ships + advanced fight script + LIFE + bounce + shitloads of other mods and scripts

you will occasionally see these bugs, depending on your CPU ability to keep up will all those codes, it may even happen with just 2x SETA.

SETA is speed hack that can result in codes skipping, and there is literally no other games out there that feature such in game mechanic, for good reason.

[INSTG8R]

SETA is speed hack that can result in codes skipping, and there is literally no other games out there that feature such in game mechanic, for good reason.

I'm sorry but there are tons of games that use Time Compression which is no different than SETA and work just fine. Not saying SETA doesn't break things but I am saying it has been used in plenty of games where it doesn't.

[GCU Grey Area]

2. fighting and turret scripts not working properly

This is the one which always bothered me the most - charging into a fight (maybe to save one of your ships which is under attack) & if you use SETA the fight effectively freezes until you get there. Rather breaks immersion & may well change the outcome. Also disliked how it had to make everything else run faster (factories, trade ships, etc) when all I wanted was to get from point A to point B a bit quicker.