X4 or new X3 DLC

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

SETA is speed hack that can result in codes skipping, and there is literally no other games out there that feature such in game mechanic, for good reason.

I'm sorry but there are tons of games that use Time Compression which is no different than SETA and work just fine. Not saying SETA doesn't break things but I am saying it has been used in plenty of games where it doesn't.

If you are referring to things like Sleeping in Skyrim, they are not quite the same thing - plus the simulations are typically vastly simpler in nature. Care to name any that are anything like an X-game in terms of universe/world complexity?

[INSTG8R]

SETA is speed hack that can result in codes skipping, and there is literally no other games out there that feature such in game mechanic, for good reason.

I'm sorry but there are tons of games that use Time Compression which is no different than SETA and work just fine. Not saying SETA doesn't break things but I am saying it has been used in plenty of games where it doesn't.

If you are referring to things like Sleeping in Skyrim, they are not quite the same thing - plus the simulations are typically vastly simpler in nature. Care to name any that are anything like an X-game in terms of universe/world complexity?

IL-2 , The Silent Hunter Series come directly to mind right away. Both can have MANY AI objects to handle in the same way X does.

I used to make missions for IL-2 with close to a hundred AI objects(ground and air) to be handled, it could handle more. Testing those missions I obviously used Time Compression over and over to see that units got to where I wanted when I wanted, engage who I wanted etc, nothing broke Flying the missions in Single Player could also use the same system.

[nap_rz]

oh yeah I forgot that some vehicle sims have time compression but they are not dealing with thousands of real time strings like factories production timers, are they?

I'm talking about 10k ships still not including factories and their numbers there, hardly any combat sims have that many units running.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

oh yeah I forgot that some vehicle sims have time compression but they are not dealing with thousands of real time strings like factories production timers, are they?

I'm talking about 10k ships still not including factories and their numbers there, hardly any combat sims have that many units running.

And that is not even taking into consideration the individual complexity of each ship - e.g. Turrets on capital ships which can be considered entities in themselves (at least from a targeting/AI perspective).

[Kaiser Kraft]

Would you please shed some light on the big issues SETA had in the previous games please? I genuinely would like to know what I missed over the past ten years or so.

See post above - if breaking the AI and pathing is not a big enough issue I don't know what is.

Ah you edited your previous post jolly good and thanks for expanding on the SETA issue.

That explains why I never noticed any issues using SETA then, or maybe my games were all simple cases - I duno. It sure as hell never became a problem for me in any of the old games.

If people were using it in other ways that's their issue it's their game and nothing to do with the way I and many others play. Removing it screwed the game for the MAJORITY of X fans.

The old games had options for getting about quickly as well wasn't that what the jumpdrive was for? I used to ride around in a capital ship with jumpdrives and loads of different ships fitted with JD's which I could hope between to complete various tasks. SETA was also useful for moving a capita/slowl ship around within a sector. Focused jumps with beacons was also an option.

I was also under the impression that there was a penalty imposed if people pressed SETA for ages and no k/m inputs were sensed. Didn't bad things happen by design like ships being lost etc.? That was by design afaik although I may be mistaken.

I really can't see the appeal of seeing the celestial sewage system which is a blot on what would other wise be a pleasing spacescape, and two plunging into the sewage pipes hugging the arse of one turd while others surf all about isn't engaging in a space sim. Regardless of how transparent the opacity value is set. It's a seriously appealing solution to a totally non-existent/exaggerated SETA issue, which the player influences. Here's my guess as to why they added a sewage network (highways)...on a console there are limited controls (always accessible button strokes) and most console players like running around maps, through tunnels or on race tracks etc. I could be wrong of course. But there are too many other give-aways that point in the same direction.

You also added this little nugget in your edit:

"As for missing the cumulative effect, these particular limitations have very little in common."

My point wasn't addressing any technical impact it was purely directed at the overall impact all these extremely ill thought out game design decisions have on the playability of the game. They have totally abandoned many of the aspects that drew people to the old games, and added nothing by way of a revolutionary (as in unique, not revolt which they achived) or even basic evolutionary advancements on what had come before. In terms of X as a brand and a highly respected series of games this is devolution with the exception of some graphic elements.

The thing is most rational people would expect something great to improve as things evidently did in the past. People are willing to accept changes when there is an advancement. The problem here is that the old has been abandoned and replaced with stuff that's totally unappealing to the vast majority of players. A travesty is what it is!

Here's a blast from the past "Tachyon The Fringe" (2000) take a look at the video at around 6:30. Cool feature?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azCnpbj9Wl4

That was a year after after X-BTF and few well before X2/X3. You're no doubt as aware as I am about what went on between X2 and the release of X3 Reunion. A late project put off for an engine rewrite and then delivered years behind scedual. The industry and fans were buzzing after they saw the amazing leap forward in graphics at previews. Then we had the disastrous launch with game killing bugs and serious slide show issues.

There were people complaining on the forum but people weren't complaining about broken game play! They were complaining of some pretty major bugs and the fact that the forum search was disabled. People were playing X3 despite the lag etc. I was one of the people trying to play through the issues - I guess you were as well.

ES came good in the end and continued to improve X3 right up until recently. But back then people in the gaming world rejected X3 because of the launch fiasco. Eventually several patches later ES had to release a playable demo, to draw people back in for a second look. They pulled it off because the community offered great support to new players and 100% positive about the game, the modders added quality enhancements and the game play was engrossing, ES stayed the course and supported their product, gained a reputation way beyond that of many other developers/producers.

The intro of this wiki entry for X3 Reunion gives a brief overview which the old posts on this forum will support.

The only thing that's significantly different this time round is the fact that the core game play aspect is broken/missing, for most of the core X PC fan base. That is an inescapable fact and everything is indicating that's the situation.

I can't imagine for a moment that their is a single genuine X fan here that wants to see the end of ES, or the discontinuation of the style of games they are known for. People are upset because Rebirth offers little of what they actually want from a space sim. It's that clear cut imho.

[Slashman]

I can't imagine for a moment that their is a single genuine X fan here that wants to see the end of ES, or the discontinuation of the style of games they are known for. People are upset because Rebirth offers little of what they actually want from a space sim. It's that clear cut imho.

The problem is that Egosoft seems unwilling to acknowledge this or to admit that there are problems with some core elements.

Even looking at the single/unique player ship angle. It was a huge missed opportunity to at least appease the core X fans that prefer multiple ships to fly. We didn't need to fly every ship in the game, but maybe 3 or 4 alternative ships to the ass-ugly Skunk with actual meaningful upgrade choices would have been a huge help. Now we don't even know if there can actually even be more player ships in the game.

AI and pathing. These were some of the critical things that Egosoft said they needed the new engine for. Now we see that they basically leashed most of the NPC ships to travel in certain areas and certain routes so as not to have them even be in a position where this is called into question.

AI factions don't challenge players or seem to pursue goals and set their own objectives so that the universe can be more dynamic.

How is it that a single guy(Josh Parnell) can be building an actual thinking AI and confidently demonstrating what it does in monthly videos(and discussing it at length in forum blogs) in less than 2 years, while an entire team of 20 has to mask how bad their pathing and AI are through tricks and slight of hand?

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@ Kaiser Kraft: WRT SETA it was well known that this would be not-implemented/removed and was considered a hack to primarily solve the problem of long journey times.

The Highways and Boosters are another solution that in many ways are better thought out. I am not saying that these could not be improved though.

No-one is denying that the X-Rebirth release was an unmitigated disaster on many fronts but that does not mean that the situation is beyond recovery (which is what some people are arguing). In reality, no-one can say for certain either way but the fact is it is rather moot since Egosoft have committed to supporting X-Rebirth for the foreseeable future.

Then there is still the outstanding question of what features explicitly constitute an X4? If this can not be answered in EXPLICIT terms of desired features there is no hope of getting anywhere near close to something resembling an X4 with the X-Rebirth engine (or any other for that matter).

[Kaiser Kraft]

fundamental issue with SETA was the potential of codes skipping inside the engine, from physics, AI, pathfinding, anything that related to codes may be affected.

usually clearly visible when people are using many additional scripts or mods that add scripts then ran SETA with high multiplier, you will see things like :

1. engine trails getting ahead of your ship in first person view mode
2. fighting and turret scripts not working properly
3. ships freeze bug usually when there's a big fight, you will see ships literally frozen on space doing nothing forever until cleaned up with cheat script.
4. factories production time skipping/sync problem

Potential being the operative word there and using many additional scripts.

So what you're saying is that SETA was fine in the game as it was intended and if a player went OTT with thirdparty content SEAT sometimes screws a few things up?

I generally play vanilla with signed mods for my serious long games. I play with mods mainly to checkout the efforts of the mods.

In my games I can honestly say I didn't suffer from the issues you're describing. Vanilla, Signed scripts and SETA travel only. As the game was intended to played. Which suggests to me that SETA was fine for regular players.

***

fundamental issue with SETA was the potential of codes skipping inside the engine, from physics, AI, pathfinding, anything that related to codes may be affected.

usually clearly visible when people are using many additional scripts or mods that add scripts then ran SETA with high multiplier, you will see things like :

1. engine trails getting ahead of your ship
2. fighting and turret scripts not working properly
3. ships freeze bug usually when there's a big fight, you will see ships literally frozen on space doing nothing forever until cleaned up with cheat script.

none of these happened to me in 2000 hours and my seta run always on x10, ohh, sure, i didnt use seta in fight especially not in big combats, whats the reason of doing so? The worse problem it could cause for me if there was a small ship flying close to a station it could crash the complex model under seta but really that was the max (but it was able to do it without seta as well)
anyway, I dont want seta, there are a lot of other solutions for traveling, just ego would need some creativity what they obviously doesnt have

try running XRM + insane pirate guild + yaki armada + phanon corp + mbrr + improved races + advanced turrets scripts for all ships + advanced fight script + LIFE + bounce + shitloads of other mods and scripts

you will occasionally see these bugs, depending on your CPU ability to keep up will all those codes, it may even happen with just 2x SETA.

SETA is speed hack that can result in codes skipping, and there is literally no other games out there that feature such in game mechanic, for good reason.

Again this is all about mods and not THE GAME ITSELF. What's more you're probably talking about several mod combinations which is a players choice. If an insane script junky wants to add on scripts it's hardly the fault of SETA or the core game is it?

You also state occasionally and refer to the processing power of the machine again that isn't sounding like an inherent fault of the game itself.

SETA isn't a speed hack! It's a time compression system which is applied across the whole game so there is no player advantage apart from a boost in real world sanity.

If people can't use things responsibly everyone else has to bow to their requirements? How about people play to the limits of what is acceptable to them and if they push the limits accept the fact that they caused the issue? Own your shit!

***

2. fighting and turret scripts not working properly

This is the one which always bothered me the most - charging into a fight (maybe to save one of your ships which is under attack) & if you use SETA the fight effectively freezes until you get there. Rather breaks immersion & may well change the outcome. Also disliked how it had to make everything else run faster (factories, trade ships, etc) when all I wanted was to get from point A to point B a bit quicker.

I never experienced that even in big battles with large numbers of capital ships and fighters. When I say never I had issues in early releases where things were not working correctly. But all the final patch games perform more than acceptably for me.


Going into battle using SETA would break the immersion for some of us. If you're aware that there maybe an issue and it bothers you why don't you take steps to avoid it. In this case don't SETA into a big battle. There is no advantage in doing so after all and as you seem to be suggesting there is no need for it in the first place. Which begs the question...why were you using it then?


The reason it had to make everything else go faster is because it is a universal time compression thing! There would be a player advantage if only the player went faster. You would also lose the immersion because while you may have got to the other gate pronto the ships around you would be left behind thinking WTF. That would make escort missions, convoys and battle fleet manoeuvres pretty crap wouldn't it?


***

oh yeah I forgot that some vehicle sims have time compression but they are not dealing with thousands of real time strings like factories production timers, are they?

I'm talking about 10k ships still not including factories and their numbers there, hardly any combat sims have that many units running.

And that is not even taking into consideration the individual complexity of each ship - e.g. Turrets on capital ships which can be considered entities in themselves (at least from a targeting/AI perspective).

Are you talking about 10k ships in sector? AFAIK the in sector stuff is calculated differently to the OOS stuff. Surely the OOS stuff is just a number crunching exercise which won't be applying pathi rules etc. While the in sector action is real time with paths and collision detection applied. Surely that's the primary difference in results from IS and OOS scenarios?

All I can say is I haven't experienced these issues and had a WTF moment as a result while using SETA or anything else that's provided with the supplied and fully patched game. I can go further and state that I didn't witness those issues while trying out some of the mods either, but I didn't have loads of mods in play in anyone game or clock up hundreds of hours using them.

The conclusion I seem to be drawing from all this is that the issue isn't with the game or SETA...it's user abuse that's pushing the system and software with thirdparty content. Well the reality is there are only so many cycles available and if you're trying to force loads of additional data into the data stream things are likely to get messy. That's why overheads and timing are taken into account surely?

You can't really blame anyone but yourselves under those circumstances.

Maybe someone could explain a better method of compressing time universally and maintain the balance, while a player ship physiclly travels across a sector? I want to see what's going on and monitor systems as I travel within a sector. I have no issue with sector jumps or galactic jumps but for pottering about in sector SETA seems to be ideal to me.

It's also optional you don't have to press the SETA key that's a player choice no one else's. Why take it away from those that see the benefit of it and use it responsibly?

The game should be a flexible as possible in order to meet the needs of as many as possible. That's exactly what Egosioft got right in the past and hopefully they will get back to doing it again.

***

I can't imagine for a moment that their is a single genuine X fan here that wants to see the end of ES, or the discontinuation of the style of games they are known for. People are upset because Rebirth offers little of what they actually want from a space sim. It's that clear cut imho.

The problem is that Egosoft seems unwilling to acknowledge this or to admit that there are problems with some core elements.

Even looking at the single/unique player ship angle. It was a huge missed opportunity to at least appease the core X fans that prefer multiple ships to fly. We didn't need to fly every ship in the game, but maybe 3 or 4 alternative ships to the ass-ugly Skunk with actual meaningful upgrade choices would have been a huge help. Now we don't even know if there can actually even be more player ships in the game.

AI and pathing. These were some of the critical things that Egosoft said they needed the new engine for. Now we see that they basically leashed most of the NPC ships to travel in certain areas and certain routes so as not to have them even be in a position where this is called into question.

AI factions don't challenge players or seem to pursue goals and set their own objectives so that the universe can be more dynamic.

How is it that a single guy(Josh Parnell) can be building an actual thinking AI and confidently demonstrating what it does in monthly videos(and discussing it at length in forum blogs) in less than 2 years, while an entire team of 20 has to mask how bad their pathing and AI are through tricks and slight of hand?

Well I agree that ES seem unwilling to pay attention to the people that support their products. Over the years I have seen it time and time again. There have been some members here posting great ideas, suggestions and objections. Modders have been the backbone of much of the cool stuff release post launch and they seem to get ignored maybe to a lesser extent.

People were upset about the loss of cockpits and a mod stepped up and saved the day.

Multipoint targeting for ships was being done back in 2000 by other developers as can be seen on the link earlier. But we never saw it in X3.

I'm not familiar with the code base of how it all hangs together so I can only speak as a player with a basic grasp on the development side of the game. But from what I have seen the information in your post seems to be reasonable statements.

You would have thought that after all these years ES would have AI pretty well sussed. In fairness to them not all twenty of them are experts in every aspect they specialise in areas. For all I know their is only one guy on the ES staff that deals with AI algorithms maybe two or three? In any event it's a shared responsibility when it comes to the release.


Instead of writing console ports and then converting them to PC they could have nailed the AI.

***

@ Kaiser Kraft: WRT SETA it was well known that this would be removed and was considered a hack to primarily solve the problem of long journey times.

The Highways and Boosters are another solution that in many ways are better thought out. I am not saying that these could not be improved though.

No-one is denying that the X-Rebirth release was an unmitigated disaster on many fronts but that does not mean that the situation is not beyond recovery (which is what some people are arguing). In reality, no-one can say for certain either way but the fact is it is rather moot since Egosoft have committed to supporting X-Rebirth for the foreseeable future.

Then there is still the outstanding question of what features explicitly constitute an X4? If this can not be answered in EXPLICIT terms of desired features there is no hope of getting anywhere near close to something resembling an X4 with the X-Rebirth engine (or any other for that matter).

Well known and community support for the idea are entirely different things. It was well known that X-Rebirth wasn't going to be the same as X3>X4. But hell the community could never have been prepared for what they got! Most X players would never have signed of on the concepts and omissions in Rebirth. It's a seriously bad slap in the face of this community or at least the majority of us.

Well I would beg to differ on the fact that the highways and boosters are well thought out. Does every ship in the game have boosters and can the AI use them intelligently? Boosters seems like a time advantage cheat for the player to me. SETA was balanced effective and kept you aware of your surroundings.

The galactic sewage network is the least immersive thing I have witnessed in a game. They created mazing looking space environments 'n threw those god awful pipes into them. Boggles the mind!

I think we as a community all agree things have gone very wrong hell ES staff know full well how this is playing out. And it can't be good for them just as it's bad for the community.

The thing is the naysayers are being told to shut up when they are expressing genuine concerns. More often than not the ones telling them to go away are seriously out of touch with the majority view. It's not even hard to prove it unless you're in a state of wilful denial. It's really quite insulting and frustrating for fans who know exactly what makes X rock for them.

Your point is totally on the money with respect to no ones outside of ES know how achievable a recovery is. That's what really seems to have people worried. Looking at what's been ripped out and knowing about some of the past issues for code changes things look bleak from where we sit. I know some of the modders are concerned about the situation.

Well I would say if I had been running the project I would have been writing the new engine to pickup where X3 fell short. I would have migrated as much tried and test good stuff as possible. While implementing the known required improvements and future proofing based on past experience.

Then I would have gone with enhancements. UI changes, visuals, pathing, AI etc. They had made improvements along the way and now they seems to have dumped all that.

Next I would have added the multi target points (like it was done in 2000 see link earlier). New stations much like they have done but retained the old game play. Maybe add some nice hangers and some animated ground crew, bots and machinery.

I would have added an object related and free entry logging system in game. So players could keep track of events, prices and orders along with general planning log style entries.

X3 simply needed to be given the chance to evolve naturally like most good products. I would have tried to make things modular (they may already be). Then if other platforms were developed for modules could be swapped out. The UI could be a code module that meets the needs of each device. In between would be some binding system to cater for different key options. I'm sure with enough thought solutions would be found.

Maybe add some dynamic atmospherics like in Elite Dangerous where the cockpit ices up if your in deep space or running stealth.

If In wanted to add the FPS type stuff or planetary stuff I would outsources it to a company that specialise in it and maybe add their game as a mod style addon. So for example they would build the planets and stations and populate them and setup game objectives. We would create a software bridge where we pass our game off to theirs. The hand over could come from an in atmosphere flight which brides over after landing or something.

Being less ambitious I would have put out what they have done now to an FPS specialist team.

I would probably have made that aspect an expansion for later release once it was fit for public consumption. I would have built OK hangers and left the deeper stuff locked out.

It's already being done here http://www.starwraith.com/ so ES should be capable of bringing the polish.

The thing is there are people in this community that already have the ideas and better ones than I just ran off.

The problem is we aren't pooling all the talent we have available in this community. The thing is if ES had done a kickstarter like SC or ES we would have all been up for that. I know hide sight is 20/20 but had we been working together we would have got there first. We wouldn't have raised 20 mil off the bat but people would have started noticing the project and it would have succeeded.

ES need to up their game generally both the ED and SC projects are ubber slick.

Here on the forum we don't even see all the game badges people have registered. There's probably a phpBB plugin for that it's a bit of php, sql and css ffs. We can't post embed YTube vids in posts. External images are restricted to 150k ish. The size should be dynamic using css max-width height 100 etc. We don't even get the advanced editor to post with and it's 2014. Come on!

I know that seems like bitching but it's intended to be positive criticism. Which is something that feels unwelcome here form all angles. I'm not a professionally trained web developer but all the sites I manage are up to date and deliver what people have come to expect. I don't use phpBB by the way. I do use lots of sites that do and they all have the advanced editor and embedding enabled. I'm sure there are some pro devs in the membership that would offer some help, if help were needed.

The forum is a valubal asset of Egosoft's but sometimes it seems hard to believe they appreciate it.

Anyway I think I have said way too much and to be honest it's none of my business how ES do business. They chopped me of with the Steam policy. Even though I cant play it on principle, I want to see X4 and I would really like to be free to play it. That's not a dig by the way just a statement of fact.

Sorry for so many long posts!


TTFF

[Max Blanche]

Kaiser Kraft, long posts are not a bad thing in itself, it's just that mixing a lot of topics together makes the discussion quite difficult I'll focus on SETA and leave other issues for a different time, but this doesn't mean you didn't raies perfectly reasonable points. It's just hard to discuss with you in a single thread

SETA to me is nothing but an instrument to cheat time in a game where time has a meaning. But it HAS an impact on AI and pathing, and it's easy to see. Just try to plot the same course through a densely populated system with an M3 and an M5; the high speed of the M5 makes hard for the game to keep up with spatial informations, and collisions are very frequent. SETA just adds that high speed factor to the whole universe, making your M3 collision-prone like your M5 in x1 time (that without taking in account only piloting AI). The fact that such issues never showed on your game doesn't change the nature of SETA, just like the fact that I never had to resort to savegame editing, doesn't mean that everyone else never had to hack a savegame in order to progress in their games.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

@Kaiser Kraft: X3 had already hit critical mass with regards to X3:AP and even then it was a complete hack job IMO. Egosoft probably realised this long ago which is almost certainly why they started work on X-Rebirth - and yes it is often necessary to restart from scratch with such projects, so playing the "copy-and-paste-from-X3" card is basically showing a lack of understanding of software development in the real world. I am not even sure it would have been possible to do as you suggest since I believe they may have switched languages of implementation between the X-Trilogy and X-Rebirth (the latter written in C++ where as the former was written in something else - based on the public info I have seen).

Outsourcing stuff (or hiring specialists) is not always an option, especially with small companies like Egosoft (and especially in the current world economy). Outsourcing (or hiring specialists) typically either costs a lot of money in the long run due to royalties/licensing and/or costs a lot of money during development due to the need to keep organic knowledge of what was done so it can be supported properly.

WRT Boosters - the AI does use them for inter-zone travel which is the primary (if not only) purpose of Boosters where the capital ships are concerned - this is the equivalent of using SETA for inter-zone travel in many ways without the downsides.

In combat, Booster usage on the player ship is a double edged sword and not really relevant where dog-fighting combat is concerned. I would be more concerned with overall combat balance than booster usage. The same can be said about Straff drives and the like.

WRT Highways, many had been asking for them for a long time (granted not the mini-game) and often referring to Freelancer as the example of desired implementation. We may not like the way they are currently implemented but they are essentially in-line with what was asked for without treading on Microsoft's IPR toes wrt Freelancer. It could still perhaps be improved though - there is no denying that.

WRT FP mode, there are lots of views on that score - some not wanting it at all and others wanting more of it (e.g. making it full FPS capable).

In short, regardless of the detail in your post the rather pertinent and thread relevant question has still not been answered...

What features exactly constitutes an X4? Answering this question properly does not mean pointing at another game and saying like that nor pointing at the X-Trilogy and saying all of that.

[Graaf]

Thats why I said X-Series. Rebirth isn't a continuation of X3.

What max is saying is technically correct...

In lore terms, X-Rebirth is a continuation of the X-Series but in engine terms it is not part of the X-Trilogy (as Egosoft call X-BTF to X3:AP inclusive).

So you are saying I am right but you make it sound like Max is because you don't want to side with someone with an opposing view to Rebirth?

Nope, I am pointing out that max does have a point and that as far as Egosoft is concerned (based on public info and that they own/control the lore) he is right and you are wrong.

But if we would have to follow the lore then that would also mean that Rebirth is X4 since it it set in X3's future.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Thats why I said X-Series. Rebirth isn't a continuation of X3.

What max is saying is technically correct...

In lore terms, X-Rebirth is a continuation of the X-Series but in engine terms it is not part of the X-Trilogy (as Egosoft call X-BTF to X3:AP inclusive).

So you are saying I am right but you make it sound like Max is because you don't want to side with someone with an opposing view to Rebirth?

Nope, I am pointing out that max does have a point and that as far as Egosoft is concerned (based on public info and that they own/control the lore) he is right and you are wrong.

But if we would have to follow the lore then that would also mean that Rebirth is X4 since it it set in X3's future.

From a certain point of view it could be considered so, BUT utilising that designation would imply a minimum requisite set of features. The title shift is sufficient to divorce the new game engine from the requirements/features of the previous engine and allow the fresh start that was probably needed to move forward.

X-Rebirth is and was always marketed as a new game and not another X-BTF redux (the last of which was X3:AP).

[OPINION]Regardless of the popularity of the X3 games, the inherent problems with the old engine were evident as of the XTM mod for X3:R. The subsequent X3:TC game was largely a formalisation of XTM, and X3:AP was largely a "hack" patch to address the long-standing OOS combat balance issues.[/OPINION]

But this thread is referring to a theoretical X4 without defining it properly. If we as a community are not able to define what is meant by X4 then we deserve what ever we get presented under such a label.

X-Rebirth not being presented as such should have been sufficient warning to consumers expecting/wanting an X4. Theoretically, X-Rebirth could become close to an X4 (or my personal interpretation of it - which is not well defined) but it can only do so if the community define precisely what they mean by X4.

[tuareg]

2. fighting and turret scripts not working properly

This is the one which always bothered me the most - charging into a fight (maybe to save one of your ships which is under attack) & if you use SETA the fight effectively freezes until you get there. Rather breaks immersion & may well change the outcome. Also disliked how it had to make everything else run faster (factories, trade ships, etc) when all I wanted was to get from point A to point B a bit quicker.

a: why to use seta to charge into a fight to save a friendly ship? you cant get there faster
b: the battle isnt freezing when you activate seta just the guns doesnt hit

o.O

From a certain point of view it could be considered so, BUT utilising that designation would imply a minimum requisite set of features. The title shift is sufficient to divorce the new game engine from the requirements/features of the previous engine and allow the fresh start that was probably needed to move forward.

X-Rebirth is and was always marketed as a new game and not another X-BTF redux (the last of which was X3:AP).

[OPINION]Regardless of the popularity of the X3 games, the inherent problems with the old engine were evident as of the XTM mod for X3:R. The subsequent X3:TC game was largely a formalisation of XTM, and X3:AP was largely a "hack" patch to address the long-standing OOS combat balance issues.[/OPINION]

I would completely agree with this if you dont put the "step forward" into the lines. but its there. look around on the game market, you can see a couple of reboot old games, and they are mostly great, new style, new graphics, new ideas still the old feeling and quality. X:R on the other hand is a stepback in nearly every way. the AI is worse (well, no collision so it save the ships but thats not a way to fix the AI), we have less space, the possibilities are a lot less, the controls and the UI are worse and even most of the graphics are worse too. the only step forward is the bigger space in one sector and the look of the stations and capitals (I would personally add the stationwalk as step forward if it would be done different but a lot would even disagree with that). It could be a reboot, they could change many things without removing what was already working...

But this thread is referring to a theoretical X4 without defining it properly. If we as a community are not able to define what is meant by X4 then we deserve what ever we get presented under such a label.

X-Rebirth not being presented as such should have been sufficient warning to consumers expecting/wanting an X4. Theoretically, X-Rebirth could become close to an X4 (or my personal interpretation of it - which is not well defined) but it can only do so if the community define precisely what they mean by X4.

If you (and ego) would not be absent on this forum in the past 10 years you would have a perfect image of an X4 already. million post are around what ppl wait from an X4:

-lots of systems like in X3 (removed with unknown reason)
-bigger sectors than in X3 (we've got it)
-realtime strategic map
-strategic fleet commands
-better AI (looking at egosofts works its a dream /sadly a nightmare/)
-bridge on capitals and station interior (got a crap version of them)
-crew (got a crap version of them)
-lots of different ships to fly (removed with unknown reason)
-lots of different ships to control (that we MIGHT will have /at least a few/)
-different races like in X3 (was removed with unknown reason)
-flexible controls (was removed with unknown reason)
-easy to use UI and HUD (was removed with unknown reason)
-planetary interaction/planetary bases maybe planetary vehicles
-deep economy (some want to think we've got it, most of us think its nowhere near to that)
-free choices (removed with unknown reason)
-tons of ways of traveling (excluding the highways)
-free trading (removed with unknown reason)
-free stationbuilding (removed with unknown reason)
etc etc etc....

(as i know a lot of attack will come on this side: "removed with unknown reason" = "the reasoning is unacceptable" ^^ )

[MegaJohnny]

a: why to use seta to charge into a fight to save a friendly ship? you cant get there faster
b: the battle isnt freezing when you activate seta just the guns doesnt hit

o.O

Guns don't hit and therefore the battle is sort of put on hold until your SETA turns off. That means if you use SETA to approach a fight, your allies will last longer than if you'd approached at normal speed.

And that's a bit rubbish.

[Graaf]

From a certain point of view it could be considered so, BUT utilising that designation would imply a minimum requisite set of features. The title shift is sufficient to divorce the new game engine from the requirements/features of the previous engine and allow the fresh start that was probably needed to move forward.

So I *can* dislike or even hate Rebirth for its lack of content and design flaws and still love the series because Rebirth isn't X4.

Which is what I said the first time before someone tried to prove me wrong.

PS: minimum set of required features will follow soon[tm]...

[tuareg]

a: why to use seta to charge into a fight to save a friendly ship? you cant get there faster
b: the battle isnt freezing when you activate seta just the guns doesnt hit

o.O

Guns don't hit and therefore the battle is sort of put on hold until your SETA turns off. That means if you use SETA to approach a fight, your allies will last longer than if you'd approached at normal speed.

And that's a bit rubbish.

yes, it is, but you didnt answer "a". why to use seta to charge into a battle when it speeds up the things happening too not just ur ship and since bonuspack you have boostdrive? especially if it ruins ur fight? seta is a method to TRAVEL quick...

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

But this thread is referring to a theoretical X4 without defining it properly. If we as a community are not able to define what is meant by X4 then we deserve what ever we get presented under such a label.

X-Rebirth not being presented as such should have been sufficient warning to consumers expecting/wanting an X4. Theoretically, X-Rebirth could become close to an X4 (or my personal interpretation of it - which is not well defined) but it can only do so if the community define precisely what they mean by X4.

If you (and ego) would not be absent on this forum in the past 10 years you would have a perfect image of an X4 already. million post are around what ppl wait from an X4:

-lots of systems like in X3 (removed with unknown reason)
-bigger sectors than in X3 (we've got it)
-realtime strategic map
-strategic fleet commands
-better AI (looking at egosofts works its a dream /sadly a nightmare/)
-bridge on capitals and station interior (got a crap version of them)
-crew (got a crap version of them)
-lots of different ships to fly (removed with unknown reason)
-lots of different ships to control (that we MIGHT will have /at least a few/)
-different races like in X3 (was removed with unknown reason)
-flexible controls (was removed with unknown reason)
-easy to use UI and HUD (was removed with unknown reason)
-planetary interaction/planetary bases maybe planetary vehicles
-deep economy (some want to think we've got it, most of us think its nowhere near to that)
-free choices (removed with unknown reason)
-tons of ways of traveling (excluding the highways)
-free trading (removed with unknown reason)
-free stationbuilding (removed with unknown reason)
etc etc etc....

(as i know a lot of attack will come on this side: "removed with unknown reason" = "the reasoning is unacceptable" ^^ )

That is not a feature list in the terms any requirements capture person would (or should) find acceptable (way too subjective/qualitative). To me, it just reads like a list of arbitrary complaints about changes (on the most part).

[tuareg]

That is not a feature list in the terms any requirements capture person would find acceptable. It is just a list of arbitrary complaints about changes.

no its not a list of complaints, these are things appeared on this very forum many times in the past couple of years...

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

That is not a feature list in the terms any requirements capture person would find acceptable. It is just a list of arbitrary complaints about changes.

no its not a list of complaints, these are things appeared on this very forum many times in the past couple of years...

Edited my post - you may want to respond to the altered wording differently.

We have been given bigger but less sectors and it can be reasonably argued that 1 X-Rebirth Zone could be considered equivalent to an X2 type sector.

So on this basis we have something like 8 Zones per Sector and 4 Sectors per system and 3 Systems in vanilla (Maelstrum does not count) - A total of 192 Zones - each with 2 player dedicated building sites (If I am not mistaken) giving a potential of 384 player owned station complexes.

There are only 2 races explicitly missing really Boron/Paranid but there are numerous factions - the emphasis in X-Rebirth is on factions rather than races.

Realtime strategic map, it is kind of present now but we do know that a proper one with better situational awareness and command and control is on the drawing board.

Stategic fleet commands, may be covered by the above.

The rest of the points are way too subjective to derive any form of real requirements list, and are the ones that read more like complaints to me.

[MegaJohnny]

yes, it is, but you didnt answer "a". why to use seta to charge into a battle when it speeds up the things happening too not just ur ship and since bonuspack you have boostdrive? especially if it ruins ur fight? seta is a method to TRAVEL quick...

I did - preserving an allied ship in a fight is exactly why you'd want to approach with SETA. Indeed it's supposed to speed everything up, but in practice it often has the opposite effect on how a fight progresses.

The problem with SETA is it does more than it's supposed to - designed as a travel method, but for technical reasons enables exploits like this. To be honest I don't mind abstaining from mechanics that are overpowered/silly/exploitative (like LRS in Rebirth) but it's still not fantastic design, and I'd still rather be able to use every mechanic in the game without feeling guilty about it.

I don't know, I just think time acceleration is a really iffy way to cut down travel time. I would love to see Rebirth adopt something like Eve's warp drive for in-sector travel - Big Space mod is close enough for me as it enables boost drives for M/S ships.