Beta 7 Feedback Xenon too weak

[maderas]

I'm a little concerned we seem to be closing in on 7.00 final and this hasn't been acknowledged yet, at least not as far as I'm aware. I don't think Xenon are ready for launch in this state, I've run several custom game starts now where I give myself vision of the Xenon sectors and run SETA for a half hour or so, and that's usually enough time for them to have already lost their first sector across multiple fronts while being put squarely on the backfoot against other factions' invasion fleets. They just aren't a threat anymore and I think that will have massive, deleterious consequences for the overall in-game economic simulation as it always has in the past when Xenon were muzzled too hard.

[Monstrosity]

I'm a little concerned we seem to be closing in on 7.00 final and this hasn't been acknowledged yet, at least not as far as I'm aware. I don't think Xenon are ready for launch in this state, I've run several custom game starts now where I give myself vision of the Xenon sectors and run SETA for a half hour or so, and that's usually enough time for them to have already lost their first sector across multiple fronts while being put squarely on the backfoot against other factions' invasion fleets. They just aren't a threat anymore and I think that will have massive, deleterious consequences for the overall in-game economic simulation as it always has in the past when Xenon were muzzled too hard.

Beta 4 “Improved quantity and locations of Xenon Defense Stations” new games only.

I’m not sure exactly where/what this did and I’m also not sure if this was done in relation to this - as in make it harder for AI to take over their sectors. Or it could be completely different reason. Idk

[zakaluka]

I'm going to try out a new game with beta 4 and see how these changes improve things, but I have had this idea for a while -

I wonder about the factions' new defense stations. Could they be introduced as missions for the player to build these defense stations, instead of the universe generator creating them at game start?

[Drenai13]

My concern with the new Xenon defence stations is that they are only effective if starting a new game (if the intended purpose is to offset the better economy etc).

I don't have an issue with starting a new game, I fully intend to on full release.

But what if I wanted to continue my old game? The Xenon would most likely be overran.

Please increase Xenon agency, they should be a threat to the whole universe not just me when I hit an imaginary cash barrier. It's been said many times, but a Xenon difficulty option would be ideal, just have higher difficulties increase Xenon jobs etc.

[maderas]

I don't have a lot of direct experience with beta 4 yet, but I will say the Xenon already had a defense station close to the Ianamus Xura IV gate in beta 3 which the Teladi would steamroll due to how seemingly weak Xenon stations are to destroyers in OOS combat now. Have they been improved inthat regard?

[SpaceCadet11864]

I noticed every F I capture is loaded with Mines and Laser Towers, which they never use. Could that be inflating their costs?

[TroubledRabbit]

they do use them though much more sparserly now than in 7.0-2. Their cargo was probably not updated for a new logic of dropping the surprise.

[PersonyPerson]

I just tested a new AI only game on 7.00 Beta 4 by leaving the computer on overnight on SETA for 24H in-game time. The Xenon for the most part held their own and even managed to take Mists of Artemis and Frontier Edge. They destroyed a lot of stations in The Void, thanks to an I rampaging across the sector. They held almost everything they started with (Even Tharka's Ravine IV Tharka's Fall, which previously the Terrans always seemed to beeline near the start of the game), but the notable exception is that they lost Matrix #451. The Teladi with their newly buffed capital ships seem to bulldoze it very early on and this clearly seems to happen far more often than not, because that happened in my main 7.00 save too (which I started in Beta 1) and others have said they experience something similar. The Xenon in Matrix #451 also seem to get distracted by the Khaak Installation. In that particular test, A K was attacking the Khaak Station (which otherwise would be helping defend the sector), that's when the Teladi poured in and annihilated everything.

I saw that Savage Spur II is now absolutely stacked with defence stations, other than that and perhaps the massive fleet in Tharka's Ravine IV, it's hard to tell what's new. The Zyarth Split did surprisingly well by not collapsing, which was a first for me.

[SpaceCadet11864]

they do use them though much more sparserly now than in 7.0-2. Their cargo was probably not updated for a new logic of dropping the surprise.

I have not seen the F's use them at all. I've only seen SE use laser towers when attacked. In fact I've not seen xenon mines at all anymore. I think it was compltely removed, not "sparse" - as the patch notes say they removed it from dogfights. The only way I think an F might use a laser tower is if it's Fleeing. but mines? not at all. I wish this wasn't patched out TBH - anyway I think this may be inflating the costs a bit and causing delays.

Other than that, I just started a new game with Beta patch 4, and so far argon is kicking Xenon out of tharka's cascade. Still a bit too early to tell though, so we'll see.

[Ketraar]

I saw that Savage Spur II is now absolutely stacked with defence stations

This has been like that for a very long while, likely since it was added to the game.

I must admit I have not had the time to go through all the thread and read everything in detail. But if we are to look into this we need to try and be more concrete and less "this is how I feel it" as the later is not helpful to get actionable changes. Additional disclaimer is that, any deep change in anything Xenon related is bound to have ripple effects and as such it needs to be considered with a lot of care.

Having said that, we did make a few changes in B4 that may have some impact, more so in new games and may take a while to have impact in existing ones if at all, depending on where the xenon are.

Xenon Border sectors were given the same treatment as factions earlier where they start out with 2 Defence Stations instead of the usual 1. Their placement was also adjusted to cover more strategic locations. A new Mineral region was added to Scale Place Green that should help the Xenon there as they were lacking resources, especially if TEL took over Turquoise See.

Mind that starting games with different seeds, player interactions, plots and all that has an effect on the Xenon evolution. The noted changes are not indented to be "the solution", just a nudge as we don't know if there is a problem at all yet.

So please post your feedback, but make sure to add saves, and description on where you are and what you did.

MFG

Ketraar

[aza502]

I saw that Savage Spur II is now absolutely stacked with defence stations

This has been like that for a very long while, likely since it was added to the game.

I must admit I have not had the time to go through all the thread and read everything in detail. But if we are to look into this we need to try and be more concrete and less "this is how I feel it" as the later is not helpful to get actionable changes. Additional disclaimer is that, any deep change in anything Xenon related is bound to have ripple effects and as such it needs to be considered with a lot of care.

Having said that, we did make a few changes in B4 that may have some impact, more so in new games and may take a while to have impact in existing ones if at all, depending on where the xenon are.

Xenon Border sectors were given the same treatment as factions earlier where they start out with 2 Defence Stations instead of the usual 1. Their placement was also adjusted to cover more strategic locations. A new Mineral region was added to Scale Place Green that should help the Xenon there as they were lacking resources, especially if TEL took over Turquoise See.

Mind that starting games with different seeds, player interactions, plots and all that has an effect on the Xenon evolution. The noted changes are not indented to be "the solution", just a nudge as we don't know if there is a problem at all yet.

So please post your feedback, but make sure to add saves, and description on where you are and what you did.

MFG

Ketraar

we really just need a difficulty option in the menu's some sort of slider that will ramp up xenon difficulty, potentially another slider for other factions. even if it's as simple as "resource cost to build ship = "certain percentage" of original value"

[Monstrosity]

I saw that Savage Spur II is now absolutely stacked with defence stations

This has been like that for a very long while, likely since it was added to the game.

I must admit I have not had the time to go through all the thread and read everything in detail. But if we are to look into this we need to try and be more concrete and less "this is how I feel it" as the later is not helpful to get actionable changes. Additional disclaimer is that, any deep change in anything Xenon related is bound to have ripple effects and as such it needs to be considered with a lot of care.

Having said that, we did make a few changes in B4 that may have some impact, more so in new games and may take a while to have impact in existing ones if at all, depending on where the xenon are.

Xenon Border sectors were given the same treatment as factions earlier where they start out with 2 Defence Stations instead of the usual 1. Their placement was also adjusted to cover more strategic locations. A new Mineral region was added to Scale Place Green that should help the Xenon there as they were lacking resources, especially if TEL took over Turquoise See.

Mind that starting games with different seeds, player interactions, plots and all that has an effect on the Xenon evolution. The noted changes are not indented to be "the solution", just a nudge as we don't know if there is a problem at all yet.

So please post your feedback, but make sure to add saves, and description on where you are and what you did.

MFG

Ketraar

As you say in existing games may take a while or not see an impact. Should we be worried about newish started games in 6.2 that move to 7.0 since they won’t get the new game changes.

[Ketraar]

As you say in existing games may take a while or not see an impact. Should we be worried about newish started games in 6.2 that move to 7.0 since they won’t get the new game changes.

Dont think you need to be worried as such. The impact still will be there, its just hard to say how much. If say the wharf in SPG is already gone and the cluster taken over, then the Xenon wont benefit much from that new region.

MFG

Ketraar

[Defender1]

Hello everyone,

I think that the xenon ships have generally become weaker. A swarm of N or M could previously pose a threat to me in my Corvette / Frigate. Now it feels like they're shooting at my shields twice as long before they're down.
Then I watched another OOS a K in Getsu Fune. This was completely dismantled by 4-5 TER hunters and 2 katanas. That within a minute.

Building the Xenon station takes forever. ANT builds its defense stations 2-3 times faster than the Xenon. I once filled the construction warehouse with the Xenon using a save game script. It took almost 45 minutes in real time until the station was ready.

I even improved the Xenon's big guns via MOD. Didn't do anything. They still burst extremely quickly. An I and 3 K's on a station ends with the death of the 4 ships and the station has a maximum of 10% less hull. I don't think that's good at all. I'm starting a new game with Beta 4.

The H doesn't really start drones for me either. There are mx 4 drones on the move and in general the H doesn't really do any damage.

[SpaceCadet11864]

I am in a new playthrough (started at Beta 4) and just finished the solborn militia quest of defending the outpost the second time, when the Yaki send a xenon force over there. In version 6, this was much more difficult.

In version 7, the new xenon ships are sent over. and I kid you not, I did not even have to fight the xenon they were getting shredded by the defenses so quickly, there was 4 minutes remaining until reinforcements arrived, but there were no xenon in sight.

On paper the F looks better than N and M, but in practice I've struggled to hit the N and Ms more consistently.

The PE is much faster to kill, but much faster as well. This makes the PE a better ship for the player to use, but with AI it just suicides itself much faster. P could tank and soak a lot of damage but PE has 50% less shields (and 50% less recharge) and just dies much quicker. I have a lot of memories of the P being quite a challenge. The PE on the otherhand, while faster, is very easy to dispatch.

I actually struggle to find H's anywhere, because in OOS and IS they die pretty fast. They seem to be formidable in special cases, but weak in most cases.

The B is the only one that I find to be the most threatening, as it can do a decent amount of damage, and is good at dodging enemy fire.

[SpaceCadet11864]

^^^ Sorry for double post, but I also wanted to add, that the new xenon ships also just "abandon ship" so often. I've seen the PE do it with 50% health a lot of the time. Because it is so frequent, it makes its effective health even less than the stats suggests. Statistically it has 50% less shields and recharge than the P. It's hull health is increased by around 10% of the P, but it "bails" so often it really is like it's hull health is at least 30% less than the P.

[CBJ]

I think that the xenon ships have generally become weaker. A swarm of N or M could previously pose a threat to me in my Corvette / Frigate. Now it feels like they're shooting at my shields twice as long before they're down.

With respect, this is exactly the kind of thing Ketraar was referring to when he said this:

But if we are to look into this we need to try and be more concrete and less "this is how I feel it" as the later is not helpful to get actionable changes.

The Xenon N and M haven't changed in 7.00 and neither have their weapons. We cannot act on the basis of a few people's "feelings" that something has changed, especially in cases where we know that it hasn't.

we really just need a difficulty option in the menu's some sort of slider that will ramp up xenon difficulty, potentially another slider for other factions.

As has been explained before, there is no "difficulty factor" that can anyone can make a "slider" for. Every factor that contributes to the "difficulty" of the Xenon also contributes to many other elements of the game, so it's also not possible to provide a "slider" for those that will actually have the effect you want it to.

[MadGoodman]

Got a bug report about Xenon ...

... cause they stopped building miners and energy transports ! So my Xenon will gone soon ...

... and - i explain it via example - there is a "bug" with their "stations to build" in sectors !
example: 1 single "station to build" remain in sector A and next xenon sector is far far away but they are able to spam new "station to build" around sector A . They have never completet or delivered this "station to build" in sector A. So they spam from Sector A to B and C and on ...

I was wondering what happen - no Xenon sector in range but in around 10 sectors "station to build" symbols by xenon. I was sending some destroyers to kill them but xenon spawns them again and again on different locations for a while. I mean - all this sectors where complete clean - no miner from Xenon inside !

May you have a look at this problem and get it fixed.

[CBJ]

You've not given us anything to look at. Start a separate thread and provide the information requested in the forum rules at the top of the forum. Make sure you include a savegame, otherwise we cannot investigate.

[Koizuki]

I must admit I have not had the time to go through all the thread and read everything in detail. But if we are to look into this we need to try and be more concrete and less "this is how I feel it" as the later is not helpful to get actionable changes. Additional disclaimer is that, any deep change in anything Xenon related is bound to have ripple effects and as such it needs to be considered with a lot of care.

Having said that, we did make a few changes in B4 that may have some impact, more so in new games and may take a while to have impact in existing ones if at all, depending on where the xenon are.

Xenon Border sectors were given the same treatment as factions earlier where they start out with 2 Defence Stations instead of the usual 1. Their placement was also adjusted to cover more strategic locations.

If I'm not mistaken, hasn't the AI been improved such that the various factions and players' Destroyers are better at attacking stations now?
If they are now able to maintain range, then adding more defense stations, while helpful, doesn't actually help very much beyond slowing down their loss of territory.

The L Gravitons have a range of 5.7km, while even the shortest range Rattlesnake has a range of 6.7km. It is trivial for every destroyer, if they are used properly by the AI now, to simply outrange the most dangerous aspect of Xenon defense stations. At the same time, I don't think increasing their range is helpful because then we're right back into the territory of "destroyers keep getting blown up on these things," except now they have no choice but to enter their range to do damage.

In which case, the only other thing that can be done with strengthen the Xenon is to improve their offensive capability, especially if the AI factions are more easily able to beat them back now.
The PE and SE have lost half of their shields compared to their old P/S counterparts, but their AI is not able to get much use out of their increased speed to stay alive, and consequently, they suffer greater losses.
This is especially egregious with the SE because the Xenon are completely reliant on them to keep their economy going, but losing half their shields means they are even easier to kill now, and their speed increase is barely noticeable. This is really bad especially because the Xenon AI can potentially send all of them out through hostile territory and accidentally stalling their entire economy, and they cannot re-allocate their remaining S/SE to another role if one of either Power Distribution or Mining get totally eradicated.

Thus, I believe the simplest ways to tackle this are to:
1) give the PE/SE their second shields back, and/or give the SE more speed to improve survivability for such a crucial unit,
2) allow the Xenon more jobs for more/bigger/more frequent offensive fleets, and
3) allow the Xenon to build redudancy in their sectors (more Defense stations/solar plants, etc.) Optionally, add a solar panel to their Wharves to reduce the criticality of Power Distribution units.

Anything else is probably going to be much more code-heavy and subject to unintended consequences or bugs, I think. #2 is probably going to be the one that requires some tuning to get them back onto even footing with the factions and maintain a stalemate against them, while #1 and #3 allow the Xenon to be more resilient, and thus remain a threat for longer.