Plastic!

[greypanther]

I have raised this subject before, but never with a vote requested. My apologies if it seems like I am ranting, or asking you to take responsibility for your actions, but this is beginning to annoy me.

I have long known of the problem of plastic " loose " in the environment and the damage it is causing to both wildlife and even how it is going to come back and bite humanity as more and more of this stuff enters the food chain. I am just shocked, though I guess I shouldn't be, just how little responsibility most people seem to be able to accept regarding their part in the problem.

I recently was made aware just how much a part of the problem our clothes are, at least if you wear clothes made from synthetic materials. Indeed it seems they are the worst sort of plastic to release as we wash them in the washing machine. This because of the fragment size and the ease with which they can be ingested by wildlife.

As I discuss this with people I know, I am shocked to find most seem to not accept any responsibility. After all what can they do? What difference will their making a change be worth, they are just one person. Even: well, we all have to die of something!

I do not remember the lack of personal responsibility being such an issue as I grew up, though that may be just a case of my perception. However it is really starting to piss me off to be honest. It seems to be endemic in UK society now. It is not just the issue of plastics, but much wider ranging.

Is it asking so much to ask people to stop buying shell suits!

I might have to get proactive and write some letters!

One article about the subject.

Another one!

There are many more.

[Chips]

There are lots of things to worry about. Disease, sanitation/clean water, global warming, pollution, plastics and far far more.

The more removed the issue seems to the individual, the less important. This is one they just do not see, so unsurprisingly they have difficultly in relating to it or caring.

[greypanther]

A good point, well made. Thank you.

[KarlHemmings]

We are now measuring plastics in the salmon farmed in Norway. It is not good reading.
My thought is that we need to stop with all plastics now.
I am not 60 years old, but in my time we have moved from "natural" textiles to synthetic. We have moved from paper bags for shopping to plastic (and lost the comedy of a bag bursting and oranges spilling down the street...).
> These are examples of the changes not the sum of them. In all areas we have plastics in our life.

There are many - huge number many - features of plastic that makes it so attractive. However the cost? Well I am not sure that we can measure that to be honest.

[brucewarren]

Seems to me we're using the plastic for the wrong task.

Instead of biodegradable houses and permanent shopping bags we should be doing it the other way round.

Use the plastic for the chairs and tables, and window frames and the wood for the food packaging. Sorted.

I realise that wooden carrier bags would lack the usual flexibility but you can't have everything.

[philip_hughes]

The effect of plastic is of great interest to me. Firstly, yes. It's irresponsible to just let it enter our ecosystems, but it is there now, can it be useful. Seeing its carbon based, these fragments would hold charge and could be a useful component of a fertile soil. If however, they have the biological effects that some suspect, it would be a bad idea. Micro particles are already in the environment so if they are seriously bad we have already doomed our species.

[felter]

The problem is, there is money to be made from plastics, and while we have governments like the current US government which is openly open to being bought over by large corporations, who want to make money no matter what the consequences are on how they make their money, or what kind of damage they do making their money, it does not matter, what the rest of the world thinks or does, because while one large nation like the US, China or even India doesn't care, then whatever the rest of us do it just doesn't matter as the damage they do wipes out all the good that the rest of the world does. If any American is reading this, what your great president has done in just the last weeks, kills what the rest of the world has done and been doing for the last few decades, and it was done in just one signature, something else for them to be proud of.

[Stars_InTheirEyes]

I realise that wooden carrier bags would lack the usual flexibility but you can't have everything.

Even then, there's deforestation to consider.

Its incredibly hard for modern civilisation to thrive while minimising environmental impact. Even if every human on the planet had the same attitude (let's be honest, there's a higher chance of planet Earth growing arms and patting us on the back whenever we let one rip in a crowded elevator) of "thats awful, we should make some changes", huge damage has already been done. Thing is, it's on such a huge scale that nobody thinks its their problem.

[e1team]

I disagree with the idea that synthetic clothes are bad for the environment. On the contrary: there are many "green" people who say that synthetic clothing industry is much less harmful than fields upon fields of cotton or cow pastures (and slaughtering of said cows).
Another thing entirely are people who just buy a candy bar, or packet of snacks, or packed salad and are too lazy to make two steps towards trash bin and just through the stuff on the ground... Argh... but the most infuriating are moms that say nothing to their little kids when they do this!

[philip_hughes]

Spruik the benefits of no plastic.

My shopping is almost entirely done by bike. The groceries go into a pannier and while it itself is plastic, I have used them hundreds of times. I ride home, walk the bike next to the kitchen and unpack the groceries while some people are still at the shops in their car looking for parking. In my particular circumstance, going plastic free is not only good for the environment, it's infinitely easier than loading the bags in a car. To me, the standard method of shopping is frustrating and hard- so using less plastic is more convenient.

Anyone in my area would realize this if they tried to shop the same way.

[Usenko]

There's a difference between plastic used for low-cost durables (e.g. panniers) and plastic used for disposables.

Mind you, if the rubbish was disposed of by incinerator it would be a non-issue. Apart from PVC, most plastics decompose to Carbon Dioxide and Water on combustion (if the temperature is sufficiently high).

[Chips]

Another thing entirely are people who just buy a candy bar, or packet of snacks, or packed salad and are too lazy to make two steps towards trash bin and just through the stuff on the ground... Argh... but the most infuriating are moms that say nothing to their little kids when they do this!

The point is that most litter/rubbish can be disposed of in a manner that does not enter our food chain; landfill, recycling, incineration.

Some plastic obviously does get past - see the plastic patch in the pacific (a source of plastic particles entering the food chain). The point about synthetic clothes is that we wash them, with the waste water from washing entering our rivers/streams and therefore the sea. From there it enters our food chain.

The issues surrounding plastics are well documented and reported; however, those presented by synthetic fabrics have not been.

Wool is an amazing fabric for many many reasons - not least for also not really needing cleaning unless you have marks you cannot remove. So wool jumpers/suits are far better than synthetic counterparts.

[Usenko]

Wool is an amazing fabric for many many reasons - not least for also not really needing cleaning unless you have marks you cannot remove. So wool jumpers/suits are far better than synthetic counterparts.

Total agreement, but as an Australian (we supply a decent percentage of the world's wool!) I may be biased.

[Alan Phipps]

Well surely the issue has to be taken up in exactly the same way as happened with microbeads and the various clean ocean pressure and action groups have to seek the introduction of voluntary and imposed manufacturing controls and then continue the process if and when any controls are found to be incomplete or unsuitable.

Just Google 'microbeads' and you will see several of the active groups and popular polls and petitions.

[exogenesis]

I've wondered about the impact of plastic fibres (& microbeads) versus natural versions (cellulose = paper/cloth).

Seeing that recent video of a plankton animal ingesting a plastic fibre,
& being told it 'blocks' the digestion, I would wonder if a cellulose fibre would do the same.

Would that 'ocean plastic raft' be much different (environmentally) if it was (modified) cellulose fibres?

Interesting take of environmental/cost benefits :

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/globalasse ... t/3611.pdf

Research demonstrates that paper in landfills does not degrade or break down at a
substantially faster rate than plastic does. In fact, nothing completely degrades in
modern landfills because of the lack of water, light, oxygen and other important
elements that are necessary for the degradation process to be completed.

Guess that could apply to any place the fibres end up accumulating,
& thinking it's unlikely many oceanic organisms have cellulose-degrading enzymes in their biology.

It takes more than four times as much energy to manufacture a paper bag as it does to
manufacture a plastic bag.

It takes 91% less energy to recycle a pound of plastic than it takes to recycle a pound of
paper.

The table at the end is interesting.

But overall, I guess we'd rather have cellulose fibres accumulating in our food chain,
versus potentially toxic plastic fibres.

[Usenko]

I'm curious why people think of plastic as toxic.

From a chemical perspective, one of the defining features of plastics is that they are very inert. I can't see most plastics being sufficiently biocompatible to be absorbed, and if they were I find it hard to see how they would do damage.

I have even heard of a suggestion that plastic could be used as a fibre substitute for people with Coeliac disease . . .

[Alan Phipps]

Well toxic as in inherently poisonous may not apply, but the more modern usage of toxic meaning harmful or causing discomfort would well do so in many cases. (From a child with a plastic bead up its nostril to a swan with a gut full of plastic pellets and shreds.) I suppose the harm is from the retentive blocking or displacement of what actually should be passing through there with little chance of degredation or natural passage or expulsion of the plastic.

There could be some specific health applications for bits of plastic but that would of course depend on the type, shape, size and retention of the plastic being tailored for the specific recipient and purpose. One size etc definitely does not fit all, especially for unintentional recipients.

[Usenko]

Don't get me wrong, I can see that a big lump of plastic is a bad thing if caught in an animal's oesophagus or whatever. But if we're calling that "toxic", then we might as well declare wood toxic because a cricket bat can be used to stave in someone's skull . .

[Alan Phipps]

Most lifeforms tend not to ingest a cricket bat ...

[philip_hughes]

Whether it is truly inert is uncertain. Certainly birth defects which affected gender differentiation were traced back to certain kinds of plastic in the 60s and 70s. These plastics imitated oestrogen.

We have plummeting sperm counts now and there are those that are suspecting plastics again.

Until we see proof either way we should probably apply the precautionary principle.

Plastic packaging is almost a crime. It's sole purpose is to make a product look enticing. At least chocolate wrappers keep the product fresh for long periods of time- but there is often more plastic in the box a toy came in- all there to hold it in a specific position so it looks better. We really don't need this. If i were in control of this i would legislate the creation of standardized reusable clear plastic containers with a sleeve at the top for a paper insert. You take the toy out and return the container to the shops and another toy is put in.