size of the community and the sense of modding

[Idea]

Over the years in this community I have been approached by mod teams and even web sites asking me to sign an NDA (non-disclosure agreement). In such cases, the first thing I do is turn in the opposite direction and walk away.

The one and only reason for NDA with a non-commercial mod is because the team doesn't want others in the community to "steal their thunder" by releasing some "new" feature ahead of mod release. That is the whole basis for the secrecy madness.

I am not addressing any specific mod team or individual/s when I say secrecy/NDA's are community destroyers, and will eventually backfire on those who conduct themselves that way in my opinion.

Clearly it's a different story for commercial operations where money can be lost if intellectual information is leaked.

But, obviously people can choose whether they want NDA madness, or not. That's the beauty of things. The freedom to be absurd takes on many forms.

I found out what NDA means yesterday.Untile then I diden't even know it exist.This community is non-profit and informations should be shared freely.I am totaly against NDA.

From hoo you should hide informations?From me?Why?

DDTC don't have NDA.

Reason to not sign an NDA's involving pursuit of my hobby, is because a big part of my enjoyment is sharing ideas with others. Depending on wording, NDA's generally prohibit sharing, and stifle community openness imo.

I totaly agree.

[Trickmov]

Thus, if you/your mod-team has developed a super-cool new feature and you decided to surprise the community with it, it's ok for you, if someone who has access to that information makes it public, because he enjoys to share informations?

[Idea]

Thus, if you/your mod-team has developed a super-cool new feature and you decided to surprise the community with it, it's ok for you, if someone who has access to that information makes it public, because he enjoys to share informations?

Jeff(Deadly) has allwasy been and it still is opened to everyone.He help every time he can.He help me and many others without asking nothing in return.He made xwiki with help from Observe,doubleshadow and many others from the old gard.
Not to metions the jobeditor from Observe and X3 Editor from doubleshadow,X plugin manager form Cyrowe.

And I respect that more then anything.

[Observe]

Thus, if you/your mod-team has developed a super-cool new feature and you decided to surprise the community with it, it's ok for you, if someone who has access to that information makes it public, because he enjoys to share informations?

Several times over the years, I have helped people overcome modding challenges by conveying hard-learned knowledge to them. They have then announced their expertise and claimed the information as their own without giving credit to anyone else (me).

In such cases, the person might be looked on as a thief. But what have they stolen? In the end, what they have stolen is a piece of my ego. In other words, I have this sensation arising within me that in the eyes of the public, the great Observe is not seen as mighty as he should be. It's all about ME, and MY ego.

Most of that is lower-brain functioning of which we all suffer to a greater or lesser extent. The question is can we overcome our fragile ego's on behalf of the greater community?

How each of us deals with all that involves our own personal journey through life as we interact with each other.

[Idea]

Several times over the years, I have helped people overcome modding challenges by conveying hard-learned knowledge to them. They have then announced their expertise and claimed the information as their own without giving credit to anyone else (me).
Most of that is lower-brain functioning of which we all suffer to a greater or lesser extent. The question is can we overcome our fragile ego's on behalf of the greater community?
How each of us deals with all that involves our own personal journey through life as we interact with each other.

That is what I am saying.If you and others from the old gard haven't share the things that you found out many mods and many moders could not do what they do today.

You share all informations about cool new feature and how you manage to do them.You diden't keep the knowledge for yourself.And as I said before this is what I respect and that is way I am against NDA in this community or any other.Business is business, fun is fun

[Trickmov]

Most of that is lower-brain functioning of which we all suffer to a greater or lesser extent. The question is can we overcome our fragile ego's on behalf of the greater community?

My personal answer to that is a clear "No."

However, as you said, there are different views to that

[Jack08]

Most of that is lower-brain functioning of which we all suffer to a greater or lesser extent. The question is can we overcome our fragile ego's on behalf of the greater community?

I reject your reality and substitute it for my own.

[Triaxx2]

If I develop some super-cool new feature, the first thing I want done is to share it with the people at large.

Better to have it out there, than to scrutinize every single team-member for possible leaks. If you want me to be trust worthy, then show me you trust me until I break it. Don't try and hem me in before I've done anything wrong.

If you try and force me into an NDA, I'm not going to expect anything but suspiscion and micromanagement and I'm going to turn and walk away, and not have anything to do with you.

I was asked to Beta Test Sacred 2. I loved the first game and was willing to help. When they mentioned an NDA, I told them Thanks, but no Thanks.

[TrixX]

Several times over the years, I have helped people overcome modding challenges by conveying hard-learned knowledge to them. They have then announced their expertise and claimed the information as their own without giving credit to anyone else (me).

In such cases, the person might be looked on as a thief. But what have they stolen? In the end, what they have stolen is a piece of my ego. In other words, I have this sensation arising within me that in the eyes of the public, the great Observe is not seen as mighty as he should be. It's all about ME, and MY ego.

That is different to the NDA argument. Stealing ideas or concepts from another can be galling to the guy/gal who lost it, but normally it's not an issue. I've had the same happen to me. Annoying, yes, bothers me, no.


On the secrecy thing, sometimes it's quite fun to release something with a wow factor that hasn't been discussed ad infinitum in the community already. I'm not talking NDA's or anything that restrictive. But just keeping things under wraps until the beta release or the next release isn't such a bad thing, especially if it's by agreement and not forced.

I enjoy seeing the responses of people who are seeing something totally new for the first time. It's not so much an ego thing (I have no desire for limelight) more I get enjoyment at managing to give it to others.

[apricotslice]

For me, the "wow" factor comes with the discussion of the original idea, not with having completed and got it out there.

In fact, getting it out there is anti-climax in comparison to the rush I get in having an idea, finding out people like it, and determining it is possible to do. Doing it is a step down, release is down further. Feedback from people who like the result raises me a bit.

But ultimately, its the idea and getting that idea discussed, that gives me the biggest buzz.

[Litcube]

Most of that is lower-brain functioning of which we all suffer to a greater or lesser extent. The question is can we overcome our fragile ego's on behalf of the greater community?

Again; agree. There's a lot of ego floating around Egosoft forums. Not a problem generally; we mostly seem to keep it in check.

If someone wants to enforce an NDA, give 'er. If they don't, give 'er. I'm not even sure sharing our opinions on the subject is fruitful, as everyone obviously has different viewpoints on it. Left wing respecting the Right wing and vice-versa is an important part of being able to exist as a community.

I'm all about open-source. If someone took my idea and flaunted it as their own, awesome. I feel the "sense of betrayal" is something that's my problem, and no one else's. That's my feeling, though.

That said, if someone had an idea that they didn't want shared or "stolen", I would respect that with a sincere smile on my face.

Respecting other's ideologies that differ from our own is a transcendental achievement definitely within the grasp of the talented patrons of this thread.

On another topic, Apricot, I think if you released separate mini-features of a mod the size of XTC, you'd be a pretty busy boy! I'm not saying it's wrong, but I think you'd be busy!

[Killjaeden]

Its not about hiding information about stuff others dont know.
Its about "hiding" informations to surprise the players. Also, there are enough people out there that want to spoil the fun for others - aka just joining a team to leach information/files.

Its your work, your "gem of your freetime", i dont want it to be stolen.
When i worked on my own smaller projects i would never think about NDA or such stuff. But in a big projects it's a completely different think imo.

The only stuff that is really "new" is our collision avoidance approach and it's simply not available for public yet as i'm still writing the tutorial for it and preparing a "library" for usage in other mods.

Our BBS script is available for public quite a while now and i dont know about a mod or script that uses it...
Same with the safe undocking script.

XTC wouldn't had this big effect if everyone would know what comes in 1.0 or if we released since our alphas. I played one of our earlier alphas and what i saw was dissapointing (surprise surprise, as everything was a big construction side). I'm pretty sure some players would have written the mod of already because of this, if we released it that early, because its the first impression that counts the most.

[killerog]

Pretty much agree with Observe again. (as usual)

I got a lot of help from members of this forum (most now long gone:( ) when I first started out modding back on X3s release. I now go out of my way to help as many new and older members of the community with any help they need and pass on any knowledge that I have learnt by my self or taught to me by others. Everything I create with that knowledge is free to use by anyone and everyone and it will always be like that.

I see no point in an NDA for a mod, this doesn't mean the whole plot of a mod needs to be given out or such, but that any discovery's made during the creation of the mod should be available.

[apricotslice]

Litcube, your probably right

Plots are an interesting point in regard to NDA. In theory, yes, you would want to protect them, at least until release. After that, you want a walkthrough out asap. I can see a reason for NDA for plots, and might go along with one just for plots.

But on the other hand, I find plots in this game are impossible to do without a walkthrough anyway (Terran and FF were an exception), no matter how much people talk about them before I do them. In fact, I tend to go looking for a walkthrough now before I even bother trying to start a new plot. The Treasure Hunt walkthrough showed me just how impossible it was for me to do without a walkthrough, and having read the walkthrough, there was no point in doing it. Likewise the New Home plot walkthrough put me off doing it.

But having a new plot in a mod doesnt justify (imo) an NDA on the whole mod.

I'm not sure I get the whole leeching thing. If someone does leech off part of a mod, then that shows there is a need for it stand alone. So if it gets leeched, then release it yourself as a stand alone and get it out there officially. Thats my approach anyway. No point in bitching about it, just get the official supported version out there and people will most likely choose your version over an obviously leeched one. And it then advertises your coming mod, where people know this great feature will be properly integrated.

That goes the other way as well. When you come up with something new, and release it as a stand alone, advertising the integrated version as part of the upcoming mod, then its already out there and there is therefore nothing to be leeched. This wont detract from the big mod, since people will want the whole thing anyway. And while waiting, you also convert people who really wanted that feature, so they are more likely to look at the full mod.

[Olazabal]

Our BBS script is available for public quite a while now and i dont know about a mod or script that uses it...
Same with the safe undocking script.

Safe undocking is already in use afaik. X-Tra uses it I believe. I read about the BBS being included in several WIP's.

Making those features available for other modders makes it far easier to create mods in the future, simply because the work hasn't to be done twice. I think thats a huge benefit.

About NDA's ... well it's a free world. Whenever a mod team/ project leader thinks it's necessary, it's his decision. Same the other way round. The community would profit more if everything is public. These are my thoughts about it.

[Katorone]

The secrecy is another thing. In my experience it's just too work-intensive to explain everything in detail to the community. That's everything time that goes off from modding time.
As I said above, just have a look into the XTC-pre-release-thread.
There are dozens of questions, if this or that will work, when the next news update will be there, if we can't give screenshots, when it's finished, why there are no further explanations, if not this or that can be included, etc.

In result this attention can be very pressing, thus it's best to avoid that.

You should be thankful you're getting the attention. Why not recruit some people who don't code, but like to talk, and let them answer the questions of players in those topics? If you agree with those people what they can say and what not, then there isn't really a problem? And your precious time doesn't get wasted by talking to the community that adores your work.

I also think, it's a bit over the top - but on the other side, if I am a trustable person, why should I not sign it, if it's that important for some person(s)?

This is a lame reasoning... Just because I'm a trustworthy person doesn't give the police the right to search my home whenever they want... I'm trustworthy, so I don't have anything to hide, have I? Oh? So you don't want the police to search your home? What have you got to hide?

A few years ago some Americans started thinking that way... See what it has gotten them. And yes, it starts with giving up one little piece of personal freedom.

[MegaBurn]

I agree. I think NDA's go far beyond mere ego, within the context of a modding community dependent on cooperation, it borders on megalomanic paranoia, except in rare cases where the mod team has extraordinary special access from the development studio (e.g. full code base or TNBT prerelease). Communities like this have a "court of public opinion" dynamic, which due to the complexities of international law can be more effective at deterring people with more ego than honor, use it.

Even with development studios I think a NDA is only worthwhile so long as secrecy is a factor in sales or the long term value of the intellectual property. At this point Egosoft could benefit from releasing most of the X3 source code, it would allow the community to take over patch development while the staff focuses on the TNBT, the resulting improvements might even increase sales if handled properly. Future releases aren't a factor, X3TC is nearing its end of life. Piracy isn't a factor, they already removed the DRM. Sensitive engine tech isn't a factor (e.g. third-party libs under NDA), they can isolate some stuff to closed source libraries, similar to commercial middleware released as free for non-commercial use. The embarrassment of messy code isn't a factor, we already there are bugs and expect parts of it to be FUBAR. It could even be argued the other way, the source code could reinvigorate the community with new found creative freedom, actively preventing that untapped creative potential from being realized is damaging. Now with that in mind, how is XTC different or extra special?

I can accept the argument of wanting to wow players at face value, but how is that different from beta testing X3TC patches months ahead of public release? There is an L3 forum for mods, why is that insufficient? As Apricotslice said, the wow factor to most developers comes from the new ideas, new creative potential, and working on implementation, not the final result. If the L3 forum is insufficient as a firewall between developers and players then find ways to improve it without sacrificing cooperative development or community support.

All of this seems like a byproduct of compensating for insufficient community infrastructure, which overtime turned into cultural bad habits. Its like a cascading system failure with a long chain of cause and effect. Now all that said, people are obviously free to use NDA's or any other measure they see fit, just as we are free to bemoan the use of any such measure with a negative side effect on the community.


On the personal freedoms argument, that's excessive, its a different imperative and different context. Police search in the public interest, the public doesn't search in their own interest - I would rather be searched by the police than a mob. That people are coerced to enter into agreements contrary to their own and the public interest is the fault of those doing the coercion, not those coerced. People who accept a NDA are not responsible for the negative side effects of the NDA, unless their motive was actively supporting the use of NDA's, to say otherwise is unfair (e.g. calling motives lame), to blame them would be persecution (not there yet but its becoming a risk - caution flag).


Weird cursory note to Apricotslice, the day I first tried AMM I also went grocery shopping and noticed an apricot spread I never would have noticed otherwise, been eating it on english muffins ever since, good stuff. Now that comes to mind every time I see your posts, especially when I'm hungry, and its something I'm not likely to forget for a very long time to come. Quirks like that are why I love communities like theses.

I hope that lightens the tone of my ruthless use of logic, sorry, its a force of habit in debates, not personal.

[apricotslice]

I tend to agree that Egosoft need to start thinking about releasing the source code to the development community, now that the superbox is well and truely out and heading for the discount bins in stores.

I would sincerely hope that whatever comes next has nothing rolled over from TC in it, that they build from scratch. After all, so many of the insurmountable bugs like the autopillok and collision madness were rolled over from X3R which were rolled over from X2. Time to stop rolling over !

A lot of the games that were the best, got a new lease of life because the code became available and people wrote patch programs for them. The only pity is that the patch writers themselves then vanished, and instead of 2nd generation patches or patch programs, the game dies completely. (A classic example is Stars!, which had a great patcher program written, but it still left holes unfilled that still broke the game. It would have been nice if whoever that was stuck around and kept bringing out new versions of the patch program in response to feedback from people using it. Even with the patch program, you still bashed your head against the limitations of the original game, and these were game breaker.)

I'd like to see that happen here (patching and patch programs), driven by community wishes. Or at least, give the code programmers the chance to improve what has been hardcoded and maybe that way help the scripters and modelers to solve some problems once and for all. Just because Egosoft cant (and/or dont want to) fix certain issues doesnt mean they cant be fixed by someone with the coding skill and dedication to doing the impossible. (The impossible after all can be done immediately, its miracles that take a little longer - old coding philosophy).

Weird cursory note to Megaburn -
These days I eat Apricot Yogurt mostly. My username was based on reality at the time Gotta love those co-incidences.

[MegaBurn]

Yeah, thinking about the potential benefits... Another is if X3-R for Linux were open sourced then that could serve as a reference for porting X3-TC. Same is true of a 3.0 patch for mac. As a downloadable add-on to the Superbox and Steam for mac it would boost sales on those platforms. Merging everything together on X3-TC as a content platform might be more appealing on Steam than each title individually...would require managing multiple game worlds, similar to merging some of the mods.

Long term development is usually a license issue, which in turns is a commercial issue. Once the commercial value is exhausted it could be released under GPL, making it available to Linux distributions, and in turn attracting attention from a lot of other developers. A good example is Warzone 2100, its popularity spiked a few years ago when it showed up on a half dozen different Linux distro repositories under GPL. Doubt that will happen with X3, there is no financial benefit to Egosoft and I don't want to see them follow Pumpkin Studios into oblivion.

Never heard of Stars! but if its still under the original commercial license then very little can be done.

EDIT: Actually, the financial benefit of GPL'ing the X series would be roughly the point when its value as a marketing tool for TNBT is greater than all expected future sales. If the development project were hosted here, with TNBT ads, maybe some hardware vendor ads, etc, then it might make sense. Thing is that's a different ideologically motivated take on a hybrid open source business model. Its not crowd sourcing a la electronic feudalism, which they could directly profit from for years to come, or as long as the community tolerates it.

[apricotslice]

It wouldnt be. Stars! is really old now. The patcher actually changes the original exe file. So its an exe program that outputs a new game exe file with your changes in it. But you still cant do enough to offset the serious end game problems thats the game was designed with.

Actually, now I think about it, its a program that changes the last official patch version of the game, not the original. So at some point, it must have had the source released.