Why not let the community design new ships?

[Requiemfang]

Egosoft shouldn't be abusing the goodwill of the Community by making them design their ships for free and then make them Egosoft assets.

Correct. Egosoft shouldn't be doing that, and fortunately, they are NOT DOING THAT.

Yup. and if Egosoft does want to use a custom made model/ship or asset they're probably gonna gain permission to use it in the first place, heck they may even if they were generous enough probably buy the asset from the person who created it, this is of course only the case the model/asset in question is completely original and not a copy/paste of another game's asset or a remake of an asset from another game/series. I don't know the details but I know quite a few assets created for the X-tended mod for X3:Reunion ended up making it into Terran Conflict. Heck the X-tended mod for Terran Conflict had a bunch of the ships and stations added to Albion Prelude, again made by the same mod team who made the Reunion mod. If the Modding assets modders create is original and good enough quality the developers might just turn around and ask to use those assets.

[Warnoise]

Player shipyard was supposed to be available on release,

False. Egosoft never promised that. If you think otherwise, prove it and cite a reference.

Egosoft doing "the heavy lifting" that you talk about is the minimum of what developers should do for what they get paid for.

I didn't say it was unpaid labor. I only said that Egosoft did that work, not modders.

Same thing with resupply ships

Same thing? Same as the shipyards? So you are asserting that Resupply Ships were promised as a 1.0 feature? That's totally false as well.

almost 4 months now and no comments from Egosoft about them

What exactly do you expect Egosoft to say? What information do you lack about Resupply ships? Here's a summary: They were created by Egosoft. They have models, textures, interiors, hardpoints, loadouts, physics, and animations. Hundreds or thousands of hours worth of work went into their development. And in 1.0 (and still in 1.50) the ships are not yet enabled for player use. Why do you suppose that might be?

(maybe they were planned as "free additional ships" marketing stunt?).

Then why weren't they enabled already? More likely Egosoft has future plans for these ships to be more awesome than they currently are and desires to imbue them with a not-yet-implemented mechanic of one sort or another. If that were the case, holding them back until Egosoft has a chance to implement that mechanic makes more sense than releasing ships which they plan to modify later, at the risk of breaking player save files.

The community had to search for them and add them in a desperate attempt to add additional ships to the current poor ship selection while Egosoft still busy fixing bugs.

Nobody "had" to do anything. The people who did, and do, and will continue to search through the game assets and scripts generally do so because it gives them enjoyment. Not out of any sense of desperation. Mods enabling the shipyard and Resupply Ships occurred ONLY because the assets were already present and complete. Ask those mod authors if they have both the skills AND available time to have completely added such things on their own since X4 was released, and let me know what they say.

currently without mods the game is barebones and barely works.

Fascinating. I find that statement both deeply subjective, and factually empty. Subjective because while it is obvious you aren't enjoying the unmodified game, many people including myself do... furthermore phrases like "barely works" are slippery and difficult to define. We could argue for DAYS about what constitutes "working" and what margin for error "barely" provides, before even moving on to the subject of actual game quality. Let's not do that. It's clear that you prefer the game with mods, and I think that the game as Egosoft has designed it is a good one, and THOSE TWO POINTS OF VIEW CAN COEXIST.

Hell, someone found out that there are whole files related Faction wars missing, despite Egosoft saying that faction wars was fixed in 1.5.

False. Egosoft never said that faction wars were fixed in 1.5. Here are the 1.50 patch notes if you would like to look for yourself.

Egosoft shouldn't be abusing the goodwill of the Community by making them design their ships for free and then make them Egosoft assets.

Correct. Egosoft shouldn't be doing that, and fortunately, they are NOT DOING THAT.

>"False. Egosoft never promised that. If you think otherwise, prove it and cite a reference."

Check this.
viewtopic.php?t=396292
They didn't say "won't be available on release" so anyone would assume they would be available on release. many people complained when they found out player shipyard wasn't available.

>"I didn't say it was unpaid labor. I only said that Egosoft did that work, not modders."

Stop deflecting, you said "heavy work" I said that is not not heavy work by mentioning what they did was the minimum for what they paid for. Let's not tryhard now.

>"Same thing? Same as the shipyards? So you are asserting that Resupply Ships were promised as a 1.0 feature? That's totally false as well."

Your assumption is wrong, by that I mean assets that are in-game but not available to the player by release for god knows what reason.

>"Then why weren't they enabled already? More likely Egosoft has future plans for these ships to be more awesome than they currently are and desires to imbue them with a not-yet-implemented mechanic of one sort or another. If that were the case, holding them back until Egosoft has a chance to implement that mechanic makes more sense than releasing ships which they plan to modify later, at the risk of breaking player save files."

Let's not turn this discussion into wishful thinking. Whether Egosoft has future plans for them or not, they should talk about them to the player, like they did about the player shipyard. You talk as if the current ships are "awesome". Carriers don't even do their job (automatically dispatching fighter, etc..) and the list is long. So "Egosoft didn't release them because they didn't work properly" isn't an excuse since they did exactly that in X-rebirth (carriers that were supposed to carry fighters, resupply ships, etc...) They are completed assets that have been tested and work by the players, yet Egosoft still haven't mentioned anything. Unless,like i said, they will be introduced as "new content" in a future patch for marketing purposes.

>"Nobody "had" to do anything. The people who did, and do, and will continue to search through the game assets and scripts generally do so because it gives them enjoyment. Not out of any sense of desperation. Mods enabling the shipyard and Resupply Ships occurred ONLY because the assets were already present and complete. Ask those mod authors if they have both the skills AND available time to have completely added such things on their own since X4 was released, and let me know what they say."

They "had" to do it since it is an established fact that the current ship selection is poor. People went as far as porting X-rebirth ships (most requested mod now) and you gonna tell me not out of desperation? Therefore people searched for those assets and worked hard implemented this early since release them despite their mechanics haven't been officially implemented yet. Same with Shipyard, if it was not out of desperation, people wouldn't have bothered to work hard to implement them since they will be officially available soon.

>"False. Egosoft never said that faction wars were fixed in 1.5. [url=viewtopic.php?"

Oh yeah, they said it was fixed in 1.32. Go check their latest video about 1.5 and 2.0. Therefore i stand corrected.

>"What exactly do you expect Egosoft to say? What information do you lack about Resupply ships? Here's a summary: They were created by Egosoft. They have models, textures, interiors, hardpoints, loadouts, physics, and animations. Hundreds or thousands of hours worth of work went into their development. And in 1.0 (and still in 1.50) the ships are not yet enabled for player use. Why do you suppose that might be?"

Read my statement about this above.

[shealladh]

As long as they're not called "Boaty McBoatface" I'd be fine with that

[ezra-r]

I'm sure sooner or later people will be able to mod in ships. But I generally don't like community additions in this aspect with a few exceptions. Most times the new ships are too cheety, or too far out from the lore and make a different game, can even ruin it.

Anything community shares is welcome of course. Oh and the in-game mechamics for game modifications, I find them spot on.

[EmperorDragon]

To go back in time a bit, was the Eclipse and Hyperion from X3 Reunion's bonus pack also community created or was it created by Egosoft? I always found them to deviate from the game's design style. That is the problem with community created ships, they don't always stick to the established design style, which can be difficult. Community creations are always welcome though, the work put into it will not go unappreciated!

Player shipyard was supposed to be available on release,

False. Egosoft never promised that. If you think otherwise, prove it and cite a reference.

Just to clear things up, from the pre-release Q&A:



Would have been available at release but Ego ran into difficulties implementing it correctly and had to hold it back. They are working on it. Can't wait!

[killerog]

Just want to point out that Egosoft have used community created/designed ships before. I got asked to make one for AP which I happily did and if I was asked again I would (if we ever get the tools and the ability to do so). I did it for free and would again, just don't expect the same quality from someone doing it in their free time having learnt everything themselves.

[Axeface]

Yup. and if Egosoft does want to use a custom made model/ship or asset they're probably gonna gain permission to use it in the first place, heck they may even if they were generous enough probably buy the asset from the person who created it, this is of course only the case the model/asset in question is completely original and not a copy/paste of another game's asset or a remake of an asset from another game/series. I don't know the details but I know quite a few assets created for the X-tended mod for X3:Reunion ended up making it into Terran Conflict. Heck the X-tended mod for Terran Conflict had a bunch of the ships and stations added to Albion Prelude, again made by the same mod team who made the Reunion mod. If the Modding assets modders create is original and good enough quality the developers might just turn around and ask to use those assets.

Thats exactly the way it worked before (I made 5 of the AP ships). TC's ship additions were from the xtended mod too. Both TC and APs new ships (and some stations) are from the xtended mods with a couple of additions from elsewhere I think. Then later other ships were made by the community for other mini plots etc.

[Shehriazad]

Just want to point out that Egosoft have used community created/designed ships before. I got asked to make one for AP which I happily did and if I was asked again I would (if we ever get the tools and the ability to do so). I did it for free and would again, just don't expect the same quality from someone doing it in their free time having learnt everything themselves.

One of your ships is in the core game of AP?

I've never been to the forums so I wouldn't know ...

[Tomonor]

Just want to point out that Egosoft have used community created/designed ships before. I got asked to make one for AP which I happily did and if I was asked again I would (if we ever get the tools and the ability to do so). I did it for free and would again, just don't expect the same quality from someone doing it in their free time having learnt everything themselves.

One of your ships is in the core game of AP?

I've never been to the forums so I wouldn't know ...

In X3TC/AP, many of the new ships are ported and polished versions from the XTended/XTC mods.

[Shehriazad]

Just want to point out that Egosoft have used community created/designed ships before. I got asked to make one for AP which I happily did and if I was asked again I would (if we ever get the tools and the ability to do so). I did it for free and would again, just don't expect the same quality from someone doing it in their free time having learnt everything themselves.

One of your ships is in the core game of AP?

I've never been to the forums so I wouldn't know ...

In X3TC/AP, many of the new ships are ported and polished versions from the XTended/XTC mods.

Im gonna be brutally honest here. I was an Offline player from X1 to X3:Reunion...X3:TC and X3:AP kind of wooshed over my head...but I figured that it was just more extended X3 gameplay so I took a quick glance over it in comparison to my 3K or so hours in X3:R.

I knew that there were mods of large scale for X3:Reunion...but I only ever played them in their infancy so none of that cool stuff even existed in its' final form.

But yea since X3:AP seems to be hailed as the gold standard (at least on Reddit) I'd wager that player-made designs should be something we look forward to...and not hate.

OF COURSE this needs to be properly evaluated by Egosoft, otherwise none of it will fit properly in the end ^^;

[mr.WHO]

IMO the best thing would be if community port X-Rebirth and X3 ships and Egosoft use them as oficial free DLC.

[shealladh]

IMO the best thing would be if community port X-Rebirth and X3 ships and Egosoft use them as oficial free DLC.

As long as they don't annoynce a Console port, either to/from, those never work out quite right (or left)

[Requiemfang]

IMO the best thing would be if community port X-Rebirth and X3 ships and Egosoft use them as oficial free DLC.

As long as they don't annoynce a Console port, either to/from, those never work out quite right (or left)

That'd require possibly a third party to release for and of course patch the game into console branch. I'm gonna be honest I doubt they want to spend the money to get themselves on console, they'd have to dumb down the game. Lets not forget now that currently the game is bringing heavy performance impact with FPS atm even with 2080 nvidia cards. Lets not forget either that this game is CPU intensive, no console as far as I am aware of would have the needed CPU overhead to run the game smoothly.

[Killjaeden]

I don't know the details but I know quite a few assets created for the X-tended mod for X3:Reunion ended up making it into Terran Conflict. Heck the X-tended mod for Terran Conflict had a bunch of the ships and stations added to Albion Prelude, again made by the same mod team who made the Reunion mod. If the Modding assets modders create is original and good enough quality the developers might just turn around and ask to use those assets.

One of the main XTM creators (Mox if i recall correctly was his nickname) worked directly for egosoft for a little while for X3:TC to make ships/stations, before he moved on. I'm not 100% certain but i think the Military outpost is one of the stations he made in that time. So some new additions in TC are his work for Egosoft directly. USC terrans where contract work of some external design team iirc. Idk how much Egosoft directly infulenced those designs (other than maybe give directions "must be white, sleek, ginormous,..."). Then there are the ships that where taken copied over from XTM.

The reunion mod (XTM) was made by different people than the xtended for TC (XTC) btw. X-tended team was not the same people that made XTM, most modellers where not from XTM. I often saw people calling it "XTM for TC" - it's officially "XTC" Mostly different people, similar objective, slightly different approach.

Could egosoft include existing modder assets in future? Yes, of course. BUT first there needs to be good content out there. Without modding tools, without an inspiring game, and without well established design there will be less content and also less quality content that fits well with the game. Because thats the thing - you first need to like the game so much that you want to do something for it. And it needs to inspire you to do something new, original in spirit of the design of the original. That's where i see a weakness in X4's state.

X3 inspired me, because the ship design was so consistent from the looks and fitted the lore so well. So there was no difficulty to ditch all the "pull"/desire for other cool 3rd party universe stuff (star wars, babylon, ...) and do original stuff that integrated seamlessly into X3 instead. In X4 i wouldnt even know where to begin. I dont like many of the ships, the races have wonky design idendity (some more some less), it doesnt fit the lore in parts. They look (imo) like toys on top of that. In addition there is the issue with the gigantic modules on ships that i think must have been a pure paper decision about ship size, requirements and stuff, that was never checked upon how it looks until it was too late for fixing. And quality wise some, like the paranid destroyer and carrier, are really poor (as a modeller with 10+ years experience by now i look closer at what i'm seeing in games). This whole thing makes it totally uninspiring (for me certainly) ... the only way to fix those issues would be to redesign everything to fit what made X3 models click for me. And for that the game is not nearly good/fun enough to warrant the monumental effort that would entail.

For me the inspiration was key for moddelling for X3/ XTC. First my own experiments, later in the XTC team, with my TS+ ships ending up in AP and another special M6 (Acinonyx) that i finished in time for the community upgrade patch (+ for XTC and for myself as cool M6 playership). I gave the models because i had already made them/ already wanted to make them and they where in XTC as well. Nothing exclusive. I would not make them on Egosofts requests for free (or on the promise to participate in some tombola about "winning to be featured in full game"). Certainly not anymore, as time is scarcer and they have also lost some of my faith in them to be perfectly honest...

I'd have an easier time retrofitting X3 (XTC) with X4's universe gameplay features (dynamic universe, dynamic wars ... the features i found the most compelling addition) by scripting it myself than totally converting X4 to look and feel comparable to X3 ship design wise. In the later case the core game design flaws X4 has (imo) still remain present and may (or may not) be solved eventually.

In X3TC/AP, many of the new ships are ported and polished versions from the XTended/XTC mods.

i cant let that stand cant speak for XTM ships in TC, but the XTC ships in the mod are more polished than their ports in AP... i think the addition of the ships came in as an afterthought in AP's development at the last minute. Or it was just really rushed development for some reason or another. No idea.

### end ramble

[Damocles_]

In X4 ships now have a lot more constraints and parameters to consider. Especially the whole walkable cockpit area (for ai and players), docking ports and weapon hardpoints. (including all the details of the collision hulls)
So converting an older model would only work if it somehow precisely fits into an existing ships layout, where basically replacing the outer fuselages design could be possible.
But just taking some ship and "putting" it into the game would certainly just make it unusable unless there is a lot of detailed work on getting the walkable areas and equipment hardpoints working.

Bottom line: it takes way more than just artistic skill to get new ships working in the game now.

The best approach would be to alter existing ships visually...

[Thecrippler]

I REALLY like how some other games handle this. There are a few dev studios that ask the community to design content, have the community vote on it, and then this content gets added to the game and is then "canon".

Of course the BALANCING aspect remains in the hands of the Devs (and modders ). The devs simply give out a set of guidelines and rules such as:

-Max Polycount/texture resolutions per shipclass
-File Format
-Design Philosophies based on factions
-Maximum amount of hard-points players are allowed to play around with. So let's say S can have a maximum of 10 hardpoints. Of which some are shield, some are engine, some are weapon.
-And the obvious fact that every submission has to be original content.



Now you let modders and fans just go to TOWN.

Let them upload that stuff to the Workshop or on your own site. Let them vote on it.

And every once in a while you select a winner or two.


Then you add a handful of ships regularly.

Of course the HOW can be very varied. They could be venture rewards, they could just appear in-game or it's just put into a pseudo-dlc package. Selling it at a low price WOULD be an option but Im not sure how this community would like it, personally I wouldn't mind if the creators get a mandatory cut.
Alternatively purchasing the blueprints for Egocredits would be a nice idea as well once that system is expanded...that way people could get the Blueprint for Egocredits and then mass produce the thing and also send it on ventures again..where people can capture it and reverse engineer it again.

i was thinking the same thing but i was not sure how to describe it since my eng tiping sucks
1+ since this is a single player it most be in the game a lot off players war saying no MP ok then gives us the option to make your own ships and stations and i must be in the first DLC no excuses devs

[Requiemfang]

In X4 ships now have a lot more constraints and parameters to consider. Especially the whole walkable cockpit area (for ai and players), docking ports and weapon hardpoints. (including all the details of the collision hulls)
So converting an older model would only work if it somehow precisely fits into an existing ships layout, where basically replacing the outer fuselages design could be possible.
But just taking some ship and "putting" it into the game would certainly just make it unusable unless there is a lot of detailed work on getting the walkable areas and equipment hardpoints working.

Bottom line: it takes way more than just artistic skill to get new ships working in the game now.

The best approach would be to alter existing ships visually...

There is another approach of course but again it's a time consuming one, which is to make new models following the older designs and have the look and feel of the newer game but still staying true to each races unique design. From the looks of it when it comes to S-class ships the only thing that would need focusing on is the cockpit and the docking hatch area. The other stuff, engines and weapon module hardpoints won't be as difficult seeing as they need flat surfaces. Larger ships of course will need more work seeing as there are more mounts. I know someone in the community here is porting over some ships, specifically someone was working on importing over the Centaur.

[Vandragorax]

It's a real shame but the ship designs in X4 are really letting the game down at this point. I think the whole modular thing works really well on stations but ships need a drastic rethink simply due to their size.

Rebirth ship designs were absolutely amazing and each faction felt unique but with a specific design goal. X3 had the same feeling, as Killjaeden has mentioned above. Rebirth also had destroyable hardpoints but the ship models felt a lot bigger than in X4. I don't really understand why the ships are so small in X4, or the turrets are so big compared to the ships. Scaling needs a serious looking at.

As for community designing new ships, it's a nice idea but I think as Killjaeden said it's too much work and too much disparity will show between different people's work, not to mention their design nuances and flourishes will all be different which will make picking and choosing one faction from multiple submissions even more of a mess than current models are.

At this point I'm kind of in agreement that it would be better to simply port Rebirth's ships and X3 ships into X4 with a tweak to the modular nature of ship turrets in X4.

[killerog]

i cant let that stand cant speak for XTM ships in TC, but the XTC ships in the mod are more polished than their ports in AP... i think the addition of the ships came in as an afterthought in AP's development at the last minute. Or it was just really rushed development for some reason or another. No idea.

Think i was given a week to make my ship from scratch to hit the release date. That was while being at Uni or college.

[Killjaeden]

Think i was given a week to make my ship from scratch to hit the release date. That was while being at Uni or college.

Did they ask you to make a new one? Hm interesting. Everything from XTC was already complete at that point.

In X4 ships now have a lot more constraints and parameters to consider. Especially the whole walkable cockpit area (for ai and players), docking ports and weapon hardpoints. (including all the details of the collision hulls)
So converting an older model would only work if it somehow precisely fits into an existing ships layout, where basically replacing the outer fuselages design could be possible.
But just taking some ship and "putting" it into the game would certainly just make it unusable unless there is a lot of detailed work on getting the walkable areas and equipment hardpoints working.
Bottom line: it takes way more than just artistic skill to get new ships working in the game now.

Docking point and "modules" (in the form of turrets) where already necessary on X3 ships. And also XR ships, even more modules on those. So nothing changed there. The "constraints and parameters" is what they decided themself that they needed or wanted it.

Nobody and nothing forced them having rooms to walk around in, inside even the smallest ships. X2 had immersive cockpits. Didnt need walking around for it to have the effect of immersion.
Nothing forced them to have visible modules for everything, and nobody dictated the size of them to be so large as it is. The modules could have easily been partially internal on some or every ship. And also designed in a way that they dont look like parasites on a host. The paranid capitals look like they are plagued with ticks...
They decided that they must have the seemless transition, and that you have to walk up to the seat and also to a teleporter chamber.
They decided that each ship class must be able to dock one class smaller than itself. They decided the stubby form factors/ dimension limits of the ships, and also the interior space to be significantly larger than what it would need to be in order to function (esp. crucial for small ships).
They decided that instead of a much more compact docking collar for 'simple' docks between medium and small ships they instead have to land on a gigantic pad so you can climb out of the "side door" of your landed fighter ship (on top of another in space...). The huge modules and the gigantic cockpits, as well as the strict adherence to their (apparently) very box-like ship dimension limit is the defining (limitating) factor of X4 ship design.
Yes with all these constraints its more difficult to make nice ships. But thats all on them I'm really curious how these all came to be....