Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

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Should the copy/paste stats be a priority for next "mid-size" update?

Yes, they are badly needed.
23
79%
No, there are more important things to fix.
6
21%
 
Total votes: 29

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mr.WHO
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Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 12:50

Currently we have copy/paste stats or "generic" stats per ships size on following categories:
- deployable storage
- missile storage
- drone storage (except for Frigates for some reason)
- internal storage for S/M ships
- countermeasure storage
- Radar range (everything is 40km range - Scouts and Carriers should have more powerful radars - one is Scout the other is usually the center of the fleet)


Additionally we still have "placeholder stats" for:
- Missile turrets
- Medium turrets (only ballance on Rotation speed and Hull durability)


I've been screaming since 1.0 that many ships feel like copy paste due to this and this also give false sence that X4 has less ships than X3 - the truth is that X4 has plenty of ships and has huge variety of possible ballance...yet Egosoft doesn't use their own creation or use it to very limited extend :(


Yes you can say that "we need to be careful not to break save or affect ballance" - but this point is invalid since you did balance Large Turrets in 3.0!
You weren't careful? Blance wasn't affected? Whatever reason you had, whoever did this - PLEASE DON'T STOP!
The Large Turret rebalance was great and added much needed variety and more options for player to configure ships.
Why this haven't been pushed more in 4.0 is really beyond me!


Especially that this should be rather low effort for implementation and betatesting!

===== BALLANCE POINT 1 =====

Why not use "balance up" approach? I mean use current generic stat as "the lowest base" for selected "lowest faction" and then ballance other faction accordingly?
E.g. if current S-size fighter missile storage is 20 missile then pick which faction should be the "low missile approach" (e.g. Terrans) and then other factions would have +5, +10, +15 and +20 missile (for missile top faction).
Exactly the same could be done for other generic stats, liek drone storage (e.g. carriers have only 20 drones? while Auxilary ships has 100?).
Countermeasure - e.g. since Terrans would be the "low missile" faction and all other factions would be more likely to be "missile oriented", this would make Terran a natural "countermeasure" high faction.


This would be savegame compactibile, because we wouldn't have problem like if ship has 20 missiles in the save, but got rebalanced to have 10.
As for betatesting it's simply the same as large Turret betatesting - nothing groundbreaking or impossible.

The most workload would be probably to make racialized bullet FX for medium turrets (e.g. Paranid purple, Argon blue, Teladi green, Split orange), but again this wasn't difficult for Large turrets.


Here is my idea for ballance:

Stat: (Low faction, slightly less low) // (slightly less high, High faction)
MISSILE STORAGE:
Terran (guns more reliable and powerful), Split (tend to stick to gun as more reliable) // Paranid (I recall that since X2 and X3 Paranids had the best missile, like hornet)

DELPOYABLE STORAGE:
Split, Paranid (lighter weight) // Teladi (more stuff for profffffit)

DRONE STORAGE:
Split, Teladi // Argon, Terran (both have experience with drones and AIG)

INTERNAL S/M STORAGE:
Split (despite Raptor would be still the biggest carrier), Teladi (cargo hold > fighter hangar) // Paranid (their ships seems o have the most massive internal volume and they have M-dock Destroyer already)

COUNTERMEASURE STORAGE:
Split // Terran (to counter other faction missile spam)

RADAR RANGE:
Teladi (radars are expensive, cost cutting for proffffits) // Paranid, Terran (most advance)


The only tough nut to crack would be that S/M storage og Large ships (e.g. Freighters, Destroyers) - they have huge internal storage to their size, but It will be less glaring when XL ships will get some S/M storage boost.

===== BALLANCE POINT 2 =====
2) Missile Turrets - turret racial MISSILE STORAGE modifier should be included in medium/large missile turret storage bonus - e.g. the missile high faction missile turret should offer bigger bonus, while missile low faction should offer lowest bonus.

2b) Other than missile storage bonus and turret durability, there is no difference between medium and Large missile turrets - would it be possible for Large turrets to launch TWO missle at the same time? Possibly missile high faction could have Large turret that launch THREE missiles in salvo - that would make Missile turrets much deeper and interesting.

2c) Mk.2 Missile launchers - they give you miniscule missile storage bonus (like +2 and +5) - absolutely not worth the price increase. I'd increase the bonus a bit ( +5 for small launcher, + 15 for Medium Launcher)


===== BALLANCE POINT 3 =====
3) Medium Turrets - they are in dire need to have same rebalance as Large turrets in 3.0 - they need to have unique racial stats (e.g. range, rate of fire, bullet speed, dammage) and bullet FX.

3b) We also need more faction unique turrets (currently we only have Argon/Split Flak and Terran Larg Bolt) - please consider adding a unique turret per faction, like:

Medium Neutron Gathling (ZYA/CUB) - rapid fire anti-missile, anti-S (albeit shorter range than Bolt)
Large Boson Lance (ZYA/CUB) - alternative to plasma with beam characteristic

Medium Thermal Disintegrator (FRF) - shield piercing alternative to pulse
Medium Burst Ray (FRF) - shield piercing beam...pure terror for fighters!
Large Tau Accelerator (FRF) - more powerful shard...aka the biggest shotgun in the Galaxy enough to tear Large ships at close range :D

Medium Muon Charger (MIN) - should fire in burst like Muon Charger controlled by NPC - something between Bolt and Flak for MIN

Medium Mass Driver (PAR or HOP?) - long range harrasment turret...you cannot escape!
Large/Medium Blast Mortar (PAR or HOP?) - unique alternative to plasma

Large Torpedo Turret (TER) - since Terrnas don't have plasma, torpedos could fill the niche here - if we would have in addition a new Terran uniuqe torpedos this would be great (note that Terran would me "missile storage low" faction, so they would need more powerful torpedos to compensate for lower storage)

Large Flak Turret (PIO) - Starburst Shockwave flak from X3, since PIO is defensive faction, they would get powerful, long range flak (but less rate of fire comparing to Argon medium Flak)



With these 3 points adresses we could finally kiss godbye that "temporary / placeholder" feeling of 1.0 - we are already at 4.0 for crying it loud!
Honestly Egosoft - you have very powerful tool in your hands - use it more boldly, like you did in 3.0!

P.S. The above would probably need to keep the consideration for DLC, like Borons, but this could be easily done in Excel spreadsheet and some pre-planning (e.g. thinking for which parts/stats Borons would be the "high" and "low" faction and this would be much esier as they would not have to be savegame compactibile as they are not yet exist. There would be no problem, if Borons for examples would have base missile storage stat at 10 instead of 20 - they would be new "low" missile storage faction if needed).

LandogarX4
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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by LandogarX4 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 13:46

They don't do any rebalancing or improvements to OOS calculations because that could upset the current balance between factions and turn the simulation unstable.

SpaceCadet11864
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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by SpaceCadet11864 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 16:52

LandogarX4 wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 13:46
They don't do any rebalancing or improvements to OOS calculations because that could upset the current balance between factions and turn the simulation unstable.
Source for this? I'm pretty sure I've seen OOS changes in patch notes

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mr.WHO
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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 17:07

LandogarX4 wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 13:46
They don't do any rebalancing or improvements to OOS calculations because that could upset the current balance between factions and turn the simulation unstable.
OOS wasn't a major problem during 3.0 Large Turret rebalance - let's be honest, medium turrets are not a big impact on OOS unless it's something like Raptor that has a lot of them.

luxor126
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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by luxor126 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:39

Topic was created many times. Poll will end up with 95% yes, as usual. Comments will be positive too but egosoft will say no.

I'm really sorry. Especially when I see how much effort and thought went into your post.

SpaceCadet11864
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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by SpaceCadet11864 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:45

I'm not sure I understand what "balance up" (I've never heard that term before) means, but are you saying you'd like the different factions to be more asymmetrical or their ships to be more unique compared to their counterparts? I can get behind that - but I don't understand your schpeal about balancing up - I mean they could just make the ships be different without doing this balancing up thing whatever it is. I can't vote for balancing up but I can vote for making the ships have more unique stats.

dholmstr
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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by dholmstr » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:51

SpaceCadet11864 wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:45
I'm not sure I understand what "balance up" (I've never heard that term before) means, but are you saying you'd like the different factions to be more asymmetrical or their ships to be more unique compared to their counterparts? I can get behind that - but I don't understand your schpeal about balancing up - I mean they could just make the ships be different without doing this balancing up thing whatever it is. I can't vote for balancing up but I can vote for making the ships have more unique stats.
It is about not reducing stats like missile hold. The code goes wonky when a ship with 20 missiles now only can hold 10. Balancing UP means keeping those as baseline and adding more to others for more variation.

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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by SpaceCadet11864 » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:55

Ohh
dholmstr wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:51
SpaceCadet11864 wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 21:45
I'm not sure I understand what "balance up" (I've never heard that term before) means, but are you saying you'd like the different factions to be more asymmetrical or their ships to be more unique compared to their counterparts? I can get behind that - but I don't understand your schpeal about balancing up - I mean they could just make the ships be different without doing this balancing up thing whatever it is. I can't vote for balancing up but I can vote for making the ships have more unique stats.
It is about not reducing stats like missile hold. The code goes wonky when a ship with 20 missiles now only can hold 10. Balancing UP means keeping those as baseline and adding more to others for more variation.
So did this happen? Or are we recommending to Egosoft that we want different stats but we want them to use the "balance up" strategy for it?

Midnitewolf
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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by Midnitewolf » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 22:06

The honest truth is you can't balance something if it is intrinsically different which is way so many games tend to duplicate stats on things like ships, units, etc. I mean take the Raptor compared to all other Carriers in the game. It costs the same as all the other Carriers but carriers more than twice the number of fighters AND mounts Capital grade weapons that would allow it to go toe-to-toe with virtually any any other cap ship in the game except maybe an Asgard, WITHOUT the use of its fighters. With fighters it could probably beat an Asgard because it could just let the fighters do the work, while it kites out of range of the Asgards doom cannon. If this was a PvP game where you could only pilot one ship, a Raptor would be an instant "I win" button in any one vs one situation.

How do you balance this without creating another Carrier of equal size and scope? This is why everything tends to be copy and paste.

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mr.WHO
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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 22:34

Midnitewolf wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 22:06
The honest truth is you can't balance something if it is intrinsically different which is way so many games tend to duplicate stats on things like ships, units, etc. I mean take the Raptor compared to all other Carriers in the game. It costs the same as all the other Carriers but carriers more than twice the number of fighters AND mounts Capital grade weapons that would allow it to go toe-to-toe with virtually any any other cap ship in the game except maybe an Asgard, WITHOUT the use of its fighters. With fighters it could probably beat an Asgard because it could just let the fighters do the work, while it kites out of range of the Asgards doom cannon. If this was a PvP game where you could only pilot one ship, a Raptor would be an instant "I win" button in any one vs one situation.

How do you balance this without creating another Carrier of equal size and scope? This is why everything tends to be copy and paste.
Obviously Raptor is more expensive:
- it has 100+ weapons vs 16 (base factions) vs 26 (Terran Tokyo) - they cost more reources to equip.
- 100 fighters cost more than 40 fighters of other carriers.


It might be good to increase the cost of Raptor bare hull as it's larger than other carriers.

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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by Feloidea » Sat, 3. Apr 21, 23:03

mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 12:50
[...]

===== BALLANCE POINT 3 =====
3) Medium Turrets - they are in dire need to have same rebalance as Large turrets in 3.0 - they need to have unique racial stats (e.g. range, rate of fire, bullet speed, dammage) and bullet FX.

3b) We also need more faction unique turrets (currently we only have Argon/Split Flak and Terran Larg Bolt) - please consider adding a unique turret per faction, like:

Medium Neutron Gathling (ZYA/CUB) - rapid fire anti-missile, anti-S (albeit shorter range than Bolt)
Large Boson Lance (ZYA/CUB) - alternative to plasma with beam characteristic

Medium Thermal Disintegrator (FRF) - shield piercing alternative to pulse
Medium Burst Ray (FRF) - shield piercing beam...pure terror for fighters!
Large Tau Accelerator (FRF) - more powerful shard...aka the biggest shotgun in the Galaxy enough to tear Large ships at close range :D

Medium Muon Charger (MIN) - should fire in burst like Muon Charger controlled by NPC - something between Bolt and Flak for MIN

Medium Mass Driver (PAR or HOP?) - long range harrasment turret...you cannot escape!
Large/Medium Blast Mortar (PAR or HOP?) - unique alternative to plasma

Large Torpedo Turret (TER) - since Terrnas don't have plasma, torpedos could fill the niche here - if we would have in addition a new Terran uniuqe torpedos this would be great (note that Terran would me "missile storage low" faction, so they would need more powerful torpedos to compensate for lower storage)

Large Flak Turret (PIO) - Starburst Shockwave flak from X3, since PIO is defensive faction, they would get powerful, long range flak (but less rate of fire comparing to Argon medium Flak)

[...]
This.

I've been daydreaming about exactly this for a couple days. Have turrets get a proper faction specific flavour instead of just differences in module HP, rotation speed, rate of fire and projectile lifetime (range). I mean my GPU would probably commit suicide if tasked to render any sort of M+ size split ship mounting a bunch of Neutron Gatlings in turrets and the Boson Lance/Mass Driver if capable of mounting them on turrets would require some specific tweaks since afaik turrets ignore heat build-up so something has to limit them lest they turn out stupendously overpowered to the point of broken ... but I want this sooo badly.

To keep things from streamlining into one optimal weapon loadout, race specific turrets like this could be genuinely locked to faction ships only (so only Split ships could mount Split specific turrets of either faction, no Thermal Disintegrator turrets on non-Split ships), something something compatible systems yadda yadda. Or just embrace the player agency and let people mount everything as they see fit, it is a singleplayer game after all so who cares if there's one loadout to rule them all. Self-imposed challenges/faction RPing is common enough to make that concern moot honestly.

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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by kobayashimaru » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 00:45

Midnitewolf wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 22:06
The honest truth is you can't balance something if it is intrinsically different which is way so many games tend to duplicate stats on things like ships, units, etc. I mean take the Raptor compared to all other Carriers in the game. It costs the same as all the other Carriers but carriers more than twice the number of fighters AND mounts Capital grade weapons that would allow it to go toe-to-toe with virtually any any other cap ship in the game except maybe an Asgard, WITHOUT the use of its fighters. With fighters it could probably beat an Asgard because it could just let the fighters do the work, while it kites out of range of the Asgards doom cannon. If this was a PvP game where you could only pilot one ship, a Raptor would be an instant "I win" button in any one vs one situation.

How do you balance this without creating another Carrier of equal size and scope? This is why everything tends to be copy and paste.
This doesn't make sense at all. It is not what OP is suggesting. The point is not to "equalize" every ship in the game. Of course ships should be different. OP just wanted to say that they should have more varied stats, instead just having the same values for every single ship across the single class. How come every heavy fighter of every race in the game has exactly the same capacity for missiles or deployables, or how come every single medium transporter of every single race in the game has exactly the same drone capacity?! Those are just few examples.
It is the number one problem in this game for me personally, that lack of variety. It just feels so generic and off putting.
I don't understand why any kind of ship stat rebalance would cause problems OOS. Yes, it could easily unbalance the races in long games, but it could be balanced properly over time. How was it done in the previous games where ships were much more varied? How was it done with DLC races that had rather different ships?

sh1pman
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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by sh1pman » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 01:47

They probably can even ask a modder who would do all of that for free in their spare time.

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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by xWolfzx » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 04:10

mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 12:50
Currently we have copy/paste stats or "generic" stats per ships size on following categories:
- deployable storage
- missile storage
- drone storage (except for Frigates for some reason)
- internal storage for S/M ships
- countermeasure storage
- Radar range (everything is 40km range - Scouts and Carriers should have more powerful radars - one is Scout the other is usually the center of the fleet)
TBH, I feel that VRO is in the right direction especially when it comes to the above. Each ships have their own roles. It would be amazing if some of Shuulo's balancing its added to vanilla.

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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by Raptor34 » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 06:35

Midnitewolf wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 22:06
The honest truth is you can't balance something if it is intrinsically different which is way so many games tend to duplicate stats on things like ships, units, etc. I mean take the Raptor compared to all other Carriers in the game. It costs the same as all the other Carriers but carriers more than twice the number of fighters AND mounts Capital grade weapons that would allow it to go toe-to-toe with virtually any any other cap ship in the game except maybe an Asgard, WITHOUT the use of its fighters. With fighters it could probably beat an Asgard because it could just let the fighters do the work, while it kites out of range of the Asgards doom cannon. If this was a PvP game where you could only pilot one ship, a Raptor would be an instant "I win" button in any one vs one situation.

How do you balance this without creating another Carrier of equal size and scope? This is why everything tends to be copy and paste.
No it doesn't. A Raptor is around twice the cost just for the base hull alone. Then you pay for the fittings.

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Re: Egosoft - why not get rid of copy paste stats by "balance up"? + other outstanding ballance

Post by RoverTX » Sun, 4. Apr 21, 07:15

mr.WHO wrote:
Sat, 3. Apr 21, 12:50
...
- Radar range (everything is 40km range - Scouts and Carriers should have more powerful radars - one is Scout the other is usually the center of the fleet)
...
Just going to leave this here.
https://github.com/rovermicrover/x4-improvedscouts

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